Allegations regarding ATF / Project Gunrunner & US / Mexican Smuggling

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jeffr
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Joined: 04/18/2002 - 12:01am
Allegations regarding ATF / Project Gunrunner & US / Mexican Smuggling

A whistleblower from within BATFE has posted a series of allegations related to BATFE’s “Project Gunrunner” operations in the Mexican border region. According to the information posted on the “Clean Up the ATF” website there are four serious allegations:

1) Agents have instructed FFL holders in Arizona to proceed with firearm sales to suspected gunrunners.
2) Agents have arranged to have firearms smuggled across the border into Mexico to pad statistics for US sourced firearm recoveries in Mexico.
3) Agents have intentionally withheld information about this operation from the Mexican government.
4) Two of the firearms that BATFE arranged to have smuggled into Mexico were used in the December 14 firefight that resulted in the death of Customs & Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

The story has received little or no media coverage outside of a [url=http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=253993] World Net Daily article [/url] and a series of posts on David Codrea’s [url=http://www.examiner.com/web-news/project-gunwalker] War on Guns blog [/url] So the validity of the stories had been subject to some doubtful scrutiny. But, apparently the story is now gaining some traction and legitimacy, because Sen Chuck Grassley has sent two letters to acting BATFE director Kenneth Melson asking for some answers.
[url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/47909152/ATF1-1] Link to pdf of Sen Grassley Letter dated 1_27 [/url]
[url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/47909228/ATF2] Link to pdf of Sen Grassley Letter dated 1_31 [/url]

jeffr
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Joined: 04/18/2002 - 12:01am
CBS Evening News released the

CBS Evening News released the first mainstream media coverage that I've heard of thus far. It's a little heavy on the "evil gun" rhetoric but it's a step toward getting this out in the open and into the view of the general public.

[url=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml... Link to Story [/url]
[url=http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7357550n] Link to Video [/url]

LarryB
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Joined: 02/02/2005 - 1:01am
Jeff, I caught the CBS report

Jeff, I caught the CBS report as well. I'm bettin' there are some red ears and tight jaws in Washington tonight.

jeffr
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Joined: 04/18/2002 - 12:01am
Hopefully there will be some

Hopefully there will be some uncomfortable moments for the BATFE and Attorney General Holder during the Traver confirmation hearings. Everything I've read says they've been stonewalling Senator Grassley's inquiries. Maybe now that one of the dinosaur networks is on board there will be some pressure from Joe and Jane Average to clean up the corruption in the BATFE and Justice Dept.

LarryB
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Joined: 02/02/2005 - 1:01am
http://www.cbsnews.com/storie
Michelle Anderson
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Joined: 11/03/2003 - 1:01am
Four ATF agents contradict

Four ATF agents contradict Justice Department account on ‘Fast and Furious’

…saying hundreds of weapons…assault rifles…military-grade sniper weapons…were allowed…into the clutches of Mexican drug cartels in an apparently reckless investigative strategy...two rifles involved in 'Fast and Furious' were found at the scene of Border Agent Brian Terry’s murder…the purchaser of the guns, had been under surveillance for over a year as he illegally purchased weapons…Top-ranking Justice Department officials...previously denied the allegations…

House Panel Slams 'Fast and Furious' Gun Operation Tied to Border Agent's Death

U.S. law enforcement operation intended to crack down on major weapons traffickers on the Southwest border spiraled out of control as federal agents were told by superiors to 'stand down' and ignore weapons bought in Arizona headed for Mexico, a House panel heard Wednesday. Three federal firearms investigators told the House Oversight and Government Reform committee that they wanted to 'intervene and interdict' loads of guns, but were repeatedly ordered to step aside.

The Department of Justice’s Operation Fast and Furious: Accounts of ATF Agents

There is so much mess in there, but in that report, on page 37: According to testimony of an ATF agent, when "walked guns" would show up at Mexican crime scenes, the supervisor of that operation "was jovial, if not, not giddy, but just delighted about that, hey, 20 of our guns were recovered with 350 pounds of dope in Mexico last night. And it was exciting."

Editor
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Joined: 04/18/2009 - 3:43pm
This is an amazing story.

This is an amazing story. I've been following it somewhat, as much as I can. Thank you for posting it.

skf

Michelle Anderson
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Joined: 11/03/2003 - 1:01am
I'm wondering if the lack of

I'm wondering if the lack of posts is because no one is following this, or that no one reads the 2nd Amendment forum?

Mike Travers
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Joined: 08/04/2002 - 12:01am
I'm following this closely in

I'm following this closely in various places. I think this belongs in the regular forum, as the story is more about gov't abuse, ineptness and coverups than gun rights, although there's a real possibility that it could end up as a gov't attempt at justifying more stringent gun laws.

Al Amoling
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Joined: 07/07/2004 - 12:01am
There's a few articles in the

There's a few articles in the latest issue of America's First Freedom the NRA magazine. http://home.nra.org/#/home

HarveyBirch
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Joined: 03/22/2011 - 6:34pm
Opinion Journal: Guns for

Opinion Journal: Guns for Drug Dealers 6/20/2011 1:25:25 PM
Columnist Mary Anastasia O'Grady explains how the government's
'Operation Fast and Furious' let Mexican drug cartels gain deadly
weapons. Also, Steve Moore says voters overwhelmingly oppose an increase
in federal debt.

Bigshooter
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Joined: 03/01/2000 - 1:01am
I have been watching this for

I have been watching this for a LONG time and waiting to see how it was going to shake out. There are a lot of people who believe that this was going to be Obama's "logic" for tightening up more gun laws and banning more guns in the United States by "proving" how many guns originated here and ended up in Mexico. Of course, that opportunity is now lost, thank God. The Mexican violence problems have been used as a manufactured crisis by USA anti-gun groups for quite some time but never got any traction. Their guns do not come from the United States any more than thair drugs come from us. They have the whole world to shop from and most countries don't have the record keeping requirements, the numbers of laws to follow or the spot checks that American legal gun dealers have to contend with. It would be like saying that the Crack problem in inner cities can be solved by tightening up on legit pharmacys. Two different worlds with no connection.

I don't know who screwed the pooch on this operation, and who knew about it, but it was wrong from the start and thank God it finally came to light. I am sure that Josh Suggarman and Sarah Brady are furious over their lost opportunity.......

Mike G
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Joined: 02/17/2000 - 1:01am
"I'm wondering if the lack of

"I'm wondering if the lack of posts is because no one is following this, or that no one reads the 2nd Amendment forum?"

That is the harm of having this separate forum, anything that has to do with "second" gets moved to this forum, a back page forum. This corruption by the US government should be on the main forum not stuck here.

This issue is more than just about the second amendment, it concerns the corruption of the justice department and ATF, it should be front page news

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/issa-says-he-doesn-t-believe-holder-...

"Yet, three full months after these public news reports, at a May 3 Judiciary Committee hearing, Attorney General Holder, under questioning by Issa, testified that he had “probably” only learned about Operation Fast and Furious in “the last few weeks.”

“We believe that he was aware of it much earlier than he said in his testimony and questioning before the Judiciary Committee,” Issa told CNSNews.com in an interview.
" snip end

Al Amoling
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Joined: 07/07/2004 - 12:01am
I agree with Mike G that this

I agree with Mike G that this belongs on the main forum.

Mike G
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Joined: 02/17/2000 - 1:01am
Justice department said

Justice department said obstructing investigation

"If his account is accurate, then ATF leadership appears to have been effectively muzzled while the DOJ sent over false denials and buried its head in the sand," Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said in a letter Tuesday to Attorney General Eric Holder. "That approach distorted the truth and obstructed our investigation." snip end

taxfoe
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Joined: 03/22/2000 - 1:01am
Larry Pratt, Executive

Larry Pratt, Executive Director of Gun Owners of America, on Alex Jones today:

Quoting Rep Issa, "I don't think Mr. Holder was being truthful when he testified . . " he replied "Probably the flip side of that is that he's lying!"

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/2/sMAHdfh908Q

jeffr
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Joined: 04/18/2002 - 12:01am
. Evidence is now coming out

.
Evidence is now coming out that this was a national strategy at the Justice Department not limited to just Phoenix or the Southwest Border Initiative:
[url=http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/07/honduras-why-would-at... Link to Information on Florida to Honduras “Operation Castaway” Program [/url]

It’s looking more and more like part of a justification strategy for the President’s “under the radar” gun control promise to the Brady Campaign. [url=http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2011/04/obamas-under-radar-gun-control-eff... Quote from John Lott’s blog: “I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.” [/url]
Quote from Bob Owens at Pajamas Media on the House Minority's "report" on Gunwalker:
[quote] But the substantial body count that resulted from this operation is something that Democratic Rep. Elijah Cummings and his colleagues avoid mentioning. The report… does not mention the Mexican casualties of this Obama administration-created fiasco. Instead, the minority report minimizes the magnitude of the crimes perpetrated under the guise of law enforcement, while building the case for gun control — an interesting development, as gun control may have been the ulterior motive for Gunwalker all along. [/quote]
[url=http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/rep-cummings-gunrunner-report-neglects-to-m... Link to Source at Pajamas Media [/url]

For anyone looking for a compilation of the Gunwalker events thus far in timeline format with links, David Codrea has created a “Journalist’s Guide to Project Gunwalker” on his “War on Guns” website and his “Examiner dot com” column:

[url=http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-p... Link to Codrea’s Timeline Pt 1 [/url]

[url=http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-p... Link to Codrea’s Timeline pt 2 [/url]

[url=http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-p... Link to Codrea’s Timeline pt 3 [/url]

[url=http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-p... Link to Codrea’s Timeline pt 4 [/url]

[url=http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/gun-running-timeline-how-doj-s-opera... Link to another timeline of events with White House press briefing information on CNS News [/url]

Gaffer
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Joined: 12/11/1999 - 1:01am
Having worked in gun shop

Having worked in gun shop for 9 years I know how particular the honest ones are for fear that the ATF will find something to take away their FFL with. Now here we have the ATF, Justice Dept and apparently the AG in collusion that winds up causing the death of one Border Agent and many more in Mexico. I remember the Mexican President in a speech before Congress chiding the US for all the guns that were being illegally sent to Mexico. What hypocrisy!

What an obvious Chicago like operation. Why are we putting up with it? Because the media is as corrupt as the people in the Administration and it does not serve their agenda. Wake the heck up America! You are being taken for a progressive ride into hell and you kids and grand kids are going to be treated as slaves before it is through,.

Some one was cute and sent my name into the progressive Move On.Org people and I have been receiving their propaganda. We have meeting of them right here in Maine. Oh, their emails are so smooth and sweet, but if you read between the lines you can see that they are trying desperately to change the face of America to something evil. I hope the good God in heaven is not so tired of our worthless hides that he lets the Progressives win.

Mike G
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Joined: 02/17/2000 - 1:01am
Anyone knows that the Obama

Anyone knows that the Obama administration is trying to promote an assault on second amendment rights, but to use the department of justice, the ATF and to coerce gun shops to further that agenda is another matter. Then to have DOJ officials lie about it and attempt to cover up their illegal activities, is grounds for criminal prosecution. But who is going to prosecute these illegal activities? the same department that initiated them?

Congress needs to step in and get to the facts, this is a big fn deal, to grab a phrase from Biden. Do we have a republic or a monarchy, an executive branch that does not have to follow the laws of the land?

woodcanoe
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Joined: 02/22/2005 - 1:01am
This is a thoroughly

This is a thoroughly disgusting mess and I have been following this development, for several months now, on Sipsey Street Irregulars, the blog written by Mike Vanderboegh. Mike, along with a few others has been in the forefront of the movement to make the American people aware of the abuse of power and miscarriage of justice that has taken place. It is only very recently that any of the MSM have paid any attention to it.

From Sipsey Street:

....."Let's get one thing straight, Gunwalker is NOT simply an ATF scandal. It IS an OBAMA scandal. ATF was just one tool in the hands of evil higher-ups"......

....."The left-collectivist gun confiscationists, unable to ignore the Gunwalker Scandal any longer, are chanting the "Permanent Director, More Gun Control" mantra louder, longer and more frequently now. Here's Pro-Publica: "Embroiled in Controversy, ATF Has Long Been Leaderless and Hamstrung."......

[url=http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/]Sipsey Street Blogspot[/url]

I believe that this is way more than a 2nd ammendment story. This is, as Mike pointed out, a story about "abuse of power" at the highest levels. Tricky Dick Nixon had his "Watergate plumbers" and so Obama has his ATF and worse, his dept of justice hacks who arranged all of this with the OK of the great poo bah.

Alas, I fear, Americans have a short memory. The swooning of Nancy Grace over the not guilty verdict earlier this week, is far more important to them than this blatant corruption at the highest levels of our government.

Oh how I wish the American people cared about this because, if enough noise was made over it, maybe some change would really happen.

I guess this is the "change" that Obama promised us.

WC

Mike G
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Joined: 02/17/2000 - 1:01am
WC We can expect NOTHING from

WC

We can expect NOTHING from the main stream media, This is a Congress who needs to act and they have the authority to do so, but they are a bunch of puppets to the executive branch. Totally gutless

Then the question arises why are they gutless? Why would not a coalition of congress critters decide that they should take some responsibilty in their oaths to their office? Who will do so? Is it partisan to allow the executive branch to ignore the law of the land?

Is it really necessary that we have to call or email our congress critters constantly to tell them they are not doing their job?

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
I believe that either the

I believe that either the central "treasure trove" of documents has yet to be discovered, or the "fast and furious" was an exercise of astounding incompetence. Nobody has yet reported that there was any mechanism for tracking the guns once they got to Mexico, and bringing to justice Mexicans involved in the illegal exportation.

Let's review the possibilities:

-- there never was a mechanism for tracking and arrest, despite real intent to get Mexican badguys.

If this is the case, what an astounding act of idiocy! There would be NO value to the exercise, and considerable potential for harm to Mexicans and Nortamericanos alike.

-- there was a plan for tracking to get Mexican badguys

If so, the exercise is NOW public. What need for secrecy could there be NOW? If there IS such a need, then say "congress, we have a method, and we'll tell you behind closed doors".

-- ATF and Holder are tools of the evil gun control mavens

This is sadly consistent with the facts as reported, and the efforts to squash whistleblowers

-- This is all part of some VERY elaborate and almost incomprehensible ruse / plan, which is pure genius.

This option has SOME plausibility. at least in light of the revelations in "Blind Man's Bluff". Everyone wondered why Congress was so unwilling to go after contractors who charged $800 for toilet seats. It turned out that toilet seats were the standard price, and Congress was hiding money rather than publishing for Soviet review "$800 million for advanced espionage sub" line items. Seemingly incompetent, but brilliant in fact. Congress could have and would have gone after $800 toilet seat contractors, if that was really the deal.

There were even a couple of congressional whistleblowers there. The difference is this: NOBODY blabbed. Everybody actually involved in the project appreciated its secrecy, and need for same.

So the MOST likely possibilites, at least from the reported data (which has its own limits) are:

1) Evil intent

2) Brilliant in a way we do not yet apprehend

3) Shocking incompetence

thistle
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Joined: 08/15/2009 - 9:46am
http://oversight.house.gov DH

http://oversight.house.gov
DHS_FOIA_Staff_Report_03-30-2011

Report: The Department of Justice's Operation Fast and Furious: Accounts of ATF Agents - June 14, 2011

http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/ATF_Report.pdf

Michelle Anderson
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Joined: 11/03/2003 - 1:01am
Has the mainstream media

Has the mainstream media picked this story up at all?

Mike G
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Joined: 02/17/2000 - 1:01am
with the weekend killings in

with the weekend killings in Mexico, it is inconvenient for the anti-liberty media that the fast and furious scandal is about

Roger Ek
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Joined: 11/18/2002 - 1:01am
I hope nobody hides this

I hope nobody hides this thread over on the 2A Page.The RKBA folks have been on this since last winter. It has been a hot topic and the liberal media has only mentioned it once or twice. They do not cover the hearings. The best thing about this is that Rahm Emanuel started it. That's why he quietly walked away and they bought him the Chicago mayor's job.

BigShooter posted:
"I don't know who screwed the pooch on this operation, and who knew about it, but it was wrong from the start and thank God it finally came to light."

Very true. I sure hope the MSM and the weak kneed NRA get on this and hammer it. GOA is on it. JFPO is on it.

jeffr
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Joined: 04/18/2002 - 12:01am
It looks like the suspicions

It looks like the suspicions are coming true: (released by DOJ today)

[quote] “The international expansion and increased violence of transnational criminal networks pose a significant threat to the United States. Federal, state and foreign law enforcement agencies have determined that certain types of semi-automatic rifles – greater than .22 caliber and with the ability to accept a detachable magazine – are highly sought after by dangerous drug trafficking organizations and frequently recovered at violent crime scenes near the Southwest Border. [/quote]

[url=http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/July/11-dag-900.html] Link to DOJ Press Release [/url]

[url=http://www.asmainegoes.com/content/antis-turn-regulations-avoid-legislat... Link to AMG 2A Forum Post Dtd 12/18/2010 for Information About Origin of Program [/url]

Old Dame Fortune
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Joined: 09/30/2010 - 9:08pm
I cant remember. Whats it

I cant remember. Whats it called when you furnish firearms to felons?

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
"gun control."

"gun control."

Roger Ek
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Joined: 11/18/2002 - 1:01am
"I cant remember. Whats it

"I cant remember. Whats it called when you furnish firearms to felons?"

Gun running
conspiracy
aiding and abetting
facilitation of a felony
smuggling
poor judgement
entrapment
misappropriation of government funds

How's that for a start when it is done with stimulus funds by the White house and the executive branch? Rahm Emanuel and AG Eric Holder are in this up to their ears.

woodcanoe
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Joined: 02/22/2005 - 1:01am
Its also called "abuse of

Its also called "abuse of power" especially when some of our highest and most powerful office holders are the people behind it.

This is a complete disgrace. How can anyone have any faith in our leadership these days.

Do we get a do-over?

WC

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