Astounding greed

Correct me if I'm wrong but even with the tax cap don't the schools and county get paid first.

Well, to paraphrase George, "if they don't like the tax cap, they should control spending and tax increases."Libby: I heard of a lawyer who's a crook, so all of you are. I heard of a teacher that is incompetent, so they all are. How's that for a response to your tobacco CEO line? And I don't support farm subsidy pork. Your boy Algore pretty much became rich by it....you know, "the people, not the powerful."

quote: In city and state government, I'm all for it. At the federal level, the issues are too important for mobocracy to rule and the programs and money are so grand that direct citizen control is simply not possible.

And James falls down the slippery slope after tripping on something that looks like his government retirement check.

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
And James falls down the slippery slope after tripping on something that looks like his government retirement check.

Cannot have any of those evil retirements. Got to keep all that money in the system to pay for benefits for those who have done nothing to deserve them beyond vote democrat. :D

It will be a contract buster. The unions want free health care, not contributory and especially if the new plan both sucks and is expensive, as DIRIGO certainly does and is. :eek:

quote:Originally posted by George:
FJH: My suggestion is not that the public have input before the contract is finalized but would hold elected officials accountable for their actions in regards to the contract. If your local school board members are giving away the store, elect new people. If you don't like the job elected officials are doing, elect new ones. That is the system intended by our founding fathers.

George, the problem is, in your system in this case, each time we decide to vote the bums out, we also have to suffer from the contract the bums approved. The spending is already a done deal. If we know the details in advance, then perhaps voting the bums out will not be necessary as the voters can make their desires known DURING the process and not when it is too late. :eek:

In my SAD we actually vote on the budget by line item. But the teachers contracts come up conveniently after those votes. So when we vote on that line we don't have much choice.

quote:It will be a contract buster. The unions want free health care, not contributory and especially if the new plan both sucks and is expensive, as DIRIGO certainly does and is.

Of course they want it, don't you?My family is paying almost $500 a month for our portion of the MEA choice plan my wife is enrolled in. The district pays only the cost of coverage for the employee, with NO dental plan offered. So it is possible to negotiate with the dreaded teachers union. BTW, her contact caps the contribution of the school district for medical care, so no matter what the MEA plan costs, the district costs are capped.Maybe if you approached it as reasonable consessions instead of with hate, vitriol and insults you might get better results.

quote: But the teachers contracts come up conveniently after those votes.

They are also conveniently before the next set of votes. As I have told our resident tax complainers, you have to tell the board what you want if you expect to get it.[ 10-12-2004: Message edited by: Randy ]

quote:Originally posted by George:
You again want a short cut from making representative democracy work. There are none. If the people on the board want to give away the store, they will do so whether the contract talks are public or not. Everything is public in Augusta and they sill pass lots of bad laws.

Well I cannot disagree with that.

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
[QB]
BTW, her contact caps the contribution of the school district for medical care, so no matter what the MEA plan costs, the district costs are capped.QB]

May I ask what school district your wife works for?
Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by James:
The spending is already a done deal. If we know the details in advance, then perhaps voting the bums out will not be necessary as the voters can make their desires known DURING the process and not when it is too late. :eek:

Its not too late UNTIL your school district
has their annual budget meeting.
The citizens have the last word on the school budget,
and the citizens can choose not to fund salaries,
contract notwithstanding.

quote: May I ask what school district your wife works for?
Thanks.

Sure, it's MSAD48. The 2003-2005 contract specifies a dollar amount per month that the school district will contribute towards medical insurance for each contract year, unlike many that specify a percentage of cost.It has worked out to be sufficient for single coverage only.

quote:Originally posted by George:
And I don't disagree with your point and Frank's point that too often school boards and the local unions are in bed together. But if people are upset by that, there is a way to change that. I don't claim that it will be easy to do. I also agree that more transparency is a good idea, but I'm not sure public contract sessions is the right answer. That could lead to more posturing and the teachers packing the room for every session. There is often a benefit to being behind closed doors where each side doesn't have to play to their constituents.

Another solution,
or at least a step in the right direction,
is for the school board to hire a professional negotiator.
(A hired gun to be the baddie.)

quote:Originally posted by JustSayNo:
Another solution,
or at least a step in the right direction,
is for the school board to hire a professional negotiator.
(A hired gun to be the baddie.)

We've tried suggesting that here for years. So far no go... the board is generally inclined to favor the teachers and staff, and there is no way to force them to hire outside negotiators.They packed every budget vote meeting with staff and their families, and it was damned hard to outvote them on a public floor.Three years ago we finally did a successful citizen petition and got the budget to a referendum vote. (sorry, George). That was the beginning of bringing some change and reason to the process for the average voter.Turnout for school budget votes tripled once we had the referendum in place.

quote:They packed every budget vote meeting with staff and their families, and it was damned hard to outvote them on a public floor.

Myth. I'm still waiting to hear how a school district can "pack the budget vote meeting with staff and their families". A district budget meeting is open only to registered voters in the district. Is it any surprise that those whose job depends on passing the budget would come and vote if eligible? How is this "packing the meeting?".It is normally difficult to out-vote someone when you don't have the votes.If people are so all fired set on reducing school budgets, why don't they vote for school board candidates that have committed to doing it? It is after all the same electorate that votes at board elections.

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
Myth. I'm still waiting to hear how a school district can "pack the budget vote meeting with staff and their families". A district budget meeting is open only to registered voters in the district. Is it any surprise that those whose job depends on passing the budget would come and vote if eligible? How is this "packing the meeting?".It is normally difficult to out-vote someone when you don't have the votes.If people are so all fired set on reducing school budgets, why don't they vote for school board candidates that have committed to doing it? It is after all the same electorate that votes at board elections.

If packing the room with parents is a myth, call me Aphrodite, because I've lived it, year after year. The schools whip up parental alarm by threatening to fire Jonny or Jennifer's favorite teacher if cuts are made. To hell with the assistant to the assistant superintendent, or one of the 105 coaches currently in residence. Or bidding out services that could save 30% over keeping it all inhouse.The aspect of electing more conservative school board members is difficult to achieve, because all school board directors have to swear legally binding oaths to support the district, its mission, and the "party line." Check out the policies for school board directors, they're usually online.I've seen it happen time after time - people get elected who swear up and down they're going to effect cuts, and after a couple years, they're all mindwashed and singing the school song.We call it the power of the Dark Side.

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
Myth. I'm still waiting to hear how a school district can "pack the budget vote meeting with staff and their families". A district budget meeting is open only to registered voters in the district. Is it any surprise that those whose job depends on passing the budget would come and vote if eligible? How is this "packing the meeting?".

It is commonly referred to as "packing the meeting"
because:
1) Many citizens are shy about voting against their neighbors who are teachers.
2) In many communities the school has become the
biggest business in town. Between direct employees
and their spouses, aunts, uncles and cousins,
the spenders constutute a HUGE block of voters
who are there for one purpose only: to line their pockets.
3) Some parents are afraid of retaliation from teachers and/or administrators
if they dare to reduce the school budget.
4) The union has a staff of hired professionals
whose job it is to spin the budget debate toward
"What's the matter with you.. you don't like kids?"
Few citizens bring this kind of experience to the meeting.

quote:Originally posted by George:
That's b.s. The only legally binding oath that they have to take is to uphold the state and federal constitution. SAD Boards have no power to kick out members who don't follow the party line or district policy. It may differ if a town has a local charter but SADs operate under state law.

From the SAD 71 online school board policies:Accept and then support the will of the majority. (Any discussion against the vote of the majority must be preceded by a written minority report presented at a subsequent meeting.) Represent the Board and the schools to the public in such a way as to promote interest and support. Having accepted the challenge of service on the Board of Directors, each member accepts the principles set forth in the following code of ethics to guide him/her in helping to provide free public education to all the children of M.S.A.D. No. 71. Each Board member will:
....view service on the Board of School Directors as an opportunity to serve the public, state, and nation because of a belief in public education as the best means to promote the welfare of our people and to prepare our democratic way of life.
....at all times think of children first and base his/her decisions on how they will affect the child, his/her education and training.
....make no disparaging remarks, in or out of the Board meetings, about other members of the Board or their opinions.
....remember at all times that as an individual he/she has no legal authority outside the meetings of the Board, and will conduct his/her relationships with the school staff, the local citizenry, and all media of communications on the basis of this fact.
....recognize that his/her responsibility is not to operate the schools, but to see that they are well operated.
....seek to provide education for all children in the community commensurate with their needs and abilities.
....listen to all citizens but will refer all complaints to the proper authorities and will discuss such complaints only at a regular meeting after failure of administrative solution.
....support graciously a decision, once it has been made by a majority of the Board.
....not criticize employees publicly, but will make such criticism to the Superintendent for investigation and action if necessary.
....make decisions only after all facts bearing on a question have been presented and discussed.
....refuse to make promises as to how he/she will vote on a matter which should properly come before the Board as a whole.
....not discuss the confidential business of the Board in his/her home, on the street, or in his/her office, the place for such discussion being the School Board meetings.
....confine his/her Board action to policy making, planning or appraisal, leaving the administration of the schools to the school Superintendent.
....welcome and encourage cooperation and participation by teachers, administrators and other personnel in developing policies which affect their welfare and that of the children they serve.
....endeavor at all times to see that schools have adequate financial support within the capabilities of the community and state, in order that every child may receive the best possible education.
....resist every temptation and outside pressure to use his/her position as a School Board member to benefit himself/herself or any other individual or agency apart from the total interest of the school district.
....recognize at all times that the school committee of which he/she is a member is an agent of the State and as such will abide by the laws of the State and regulations which are formulated by the State Board of Education which is the body responsible for educational policies as determined by legislative acts.
....attempt to attend all meetings of the Board; and, if it should become necessary to miss more than three (3) consecutive regular meetings of the Board, or twenty-five (25) percent of all meetings within any six (6) month period, will meet with the Chairperson of the Board and explain the nature of the reason for absence. Amended: Oct 22, 1984
Reviewed: Sep 08, 1997

This is a tad bit different from just supporting state and federal constitution.

Reminds me of the "we don't live in Perfect, anymore" ads. George might, but not the rest of us.Try whipping the kids up, giving them flyers (printed at whose expense?) to take home, and other powers that comes with the bureaucracy. For example, how many of you have been called by your paper just to get the "average citizen's view" on an education related issue? Compare that to how many times they contact the school board, the super, and other paid functionaries.Those of you taking the school side in this are trying to delude us into believing the whole area is just a polite little discussion over tea about how the next enrichment program should work.Check the stats on wagon pullers vs. wagon riders, and start seeing the school industry in those terms.Industry? Yes....they are a very large and powerful business in this country, with a franchise in virtually every town in America. Their corporate headquarters is extremely well funded, and they are no less vicious than the racism industry in how they operate.They find some useful and unrealistic ("money grows on trees") idiots in each town to take up the party line. And on top of it all, we get the guilt trip on being in "public service" from the $100K plus district managers.Yeah, I'm whining. So what. I whine far less than the super and the board and all the parents that swear 5-6% a year in spending increases makes it "impossible to provide all the services everyone is 'demanding.'"

As for the concerns about insurance costs raised by Randy, SAD 48 is very different from many of the other districts. Ours only contributes 15% of their insurance cost, and it's a comprehensive policy.While I recognize that $500 a month is a lot to pay, frankly it's only comparable to what many are already paying in the private sector, and have been. And many pay far more than that, especially the self-employed.It's not that I'm against teachers and school staff being compensated fairly for the difficult and demanding work they do. It's the fact that they cannot continually be sheltered from the growing economic pressures being suffered by everyone else outside a government/educational setting.If the money was readily available without causing hardship everywhere else, who would care, as long as the product (well-educated children) was forthcoming.But the real insult in our community is that in spite of budget increases totalling almost 50% in six years, the MEA scores haven't reflected a similar increase in any sense. Instead, we've had declining or stagnant scores for years, only recently beginning to rebound.

quote:Originally posted by Melvin Udall:
Reminds me of the "we don't live in Perfect, anymore" ads. George might, but not the rest of us.Try whipping the kids up, giving them flyers (printed at whose expense?) to take home, and other powers that comes with the bureaucracy. For example, how many of you have been called by your paper just to get the "average citizen's view" on an education related issue? Compare that to how many times they contact the school board, the super, and other paid functionaries.Those of you taking the school side in this are trying to delude us into believing the whole area is just a polite little discussion over tea about how the next enrichment program should work.Check the stats on wagon pullers vs. wagon riders, and start seeing the school industry in those terms.Industry? Yes....they are a very large and powerful business in this country, with a franchise in virtually every town in America. Their corporate headquarters is extremely well funded, and they are no less vicious than the racism industry in how they operate.They find some useful and unrealistic ("money grows on trees") idiots in each town to take up the party line. And on top of it all, we get the guilt trip on being in "public service" from the $100K plus district managers.Yeah, I'm whining. So what. I whine far less than the super and the board and all the parents that swear 5-6% a year in spending increases makes it "impossible to provide all the services everyone is 'demanding.'"

Couldn't have said it better, thanks Melvin.

Just received from our local "cable engineer" via email. How often do you see press releases from the working taxpayer?There is such a thing as owning the pulpit. Add a completely spineless and obsequious press to the mix, and you get what we have. Personally, I'm hoping the tax cap passes in a shocking landslide just to cause a huge change in things.

quote: Community Television Association of Maine
Press ReleaseOctober 12, 2004
South Portland, Maine

COMMUNITY TELEVISION ASSOCIATION OF MAINE OPPOSES TAX CAP The board of directors of the Community Television Association of Maine (CTAM) has voted to oppose the tax cap on the November ballot, due to the potential serious threat it poses to the future of community television in Maine.Most public, educational and government access (PEG) stations in Maine receive funding from fees paid by cable television companies. The use of these "franchise fees" by the municipalities is currently not governed by state law. Municipalities may use the fees as they choose. If the tax cap passes and municipalities are severely strapped for cash, they may tap into those fees, forcing the curtailment or closing of community television stations throughout the State.Maine residents have grown accustomed to viewing town board and city council meetings, as well as local programming, on access stations. However, their ability to do so could end, at the very moment when those municipal bodies are making crucial decisions about cutting services.The Board of Directors of the Community Television Association of Maine urges all Maine residents to vote NO on the tax cap referendum.CTAM, an affiliate of the Maine Municipal Association, is a nonprofit membership organization that was founded in 1990 to support the efforts of community media in Maine. CTAM represents over 70 existing municipal and community television organizations throughout the state that operate PEG "access" channels, many of which are staffed by local volunteers.
Tony Vigue
CTAM Legislative Review

quote:Originally posted by FJH:

Welcome to the real world of public school politics, folks!

Amen, brother!

quote:Originally posted by Randy:
Myth. I'm still waiting to hear how a school district can "pack the budget vote meeting with staff and their families". A district budget meeting is open only to registered voters in the district. Is it any surprise that those whose job depends on passing the budget would come and vote if eligible? How is this "packing the meeting?".It is normally difficult to out-vote someone when you don't have the votes.If people are so all fired set on reducing school budgets, why don't they vote for school board candidates that have committed to doing it? It is after all the same electorate that votes at board elections.

I cannot speak to your town BUT, in Portland, at the first public hearing I atended on the budget issue at the city council, we had over 100 people show up. Of that group 73 spoke. Of the 73, 70 were either employees of the school system, family of employees, or a very few individuals who were pleading to not cut their programs, as the schools said they would do if they did not get their tax increase. 3 people, including myself spoke against the tax increase noting that ALL the money was to go to pay and benefit increases and none to "the children".We lost, of course. The next year there were a dozen of us reminding the council that all the money was for pay increases. The year after we had 15....Bottom line, with over 1000 employees in our school dept, it is easy to get a few score to show up and plead "for the children" and fool the public yet again.

The tentative contract is never avaiable until the night of the meeting in Portland because they always convienetly have to have an executive session to discuss the details just before the meeting. Finding someone who will get you a copy after that executive session is the next step. They all seem to disapear.Steven Scharf
SCSMedia@aol.com

quote: I cannot speak to your town BUT, in Portland, at the first public hearing I atended on the budget issue at the city council, we had over 100 people show up.

A hearing is not a budget meeting. A budget meeting is restricted to only registered voters. My statement only refers to the assertion that somehow the School Board stacks the deck with votes by "packing" a district budget meeting with employees and relatives.In a municipality like Portland you don't get to vote on the Budget, it's a different situation.We had local police reserving parking for Senior Citizens and staff was told to park across the street during the last district budget meeting. And still the tax complainers called it "unfair".As they say, you get the government you deserve.

quote: that's why the Union and their paid cronies on the school board

Frank, if you have any evidence at all that the MEA is paying a school board member, you should take it to the District Attorney. It's not hard to understand why people like you aren't very effective in getting the system to change when you make statements like that.

Heh, I just read today in the Portland Socialist, that the teachers union has coughed up $300,000 for the effort to defeat the tax cap. $300K!The power of these folks is amazing. :eek:

Good day to you all. This is my Very First post to this site. I'm proud to have taken the small steps of registering and readng some, small though these steps may be. I was motivated to come here after doing a Google search looking for some way to communicate something sent to me regarding the tap cap. Here are the contents of an e-mail forwarded to me yesterday:
---------------------------
Public Meetings on Paleski Tax Cap ReferendumAn important issue on the November 2 ballot for all Mainers is the tax cap initative. In an effort to provide information on the possible effects of the proposed tax cap on our schools, Town Manager, Don Gerrish and Superintendent of Schools, Jim Ashe have scheduled the following meetings:

Tuesday, October 12, 7:00 pm at Brunswick High School Crooker Theater

Tuesday, October 19, 7:00 pm at the Town Municipal Meeting Facility

Thursday, October 28, 7:00 pm at the Atrium Inn & Convention Center

They both feel it is very important that the town's voters have an understanding of the tax cap initiative's impact on the town and schools before voting on the 2nd. All citizens are invited to attend. These meetings are not special meetings of the Town Council or School Board, but several Councilors and School Board Members may attend.

If you need additional infomation, please contact the Town Manager's Office at 725-6659.

Please forward this message to everyone that you think would be interested in this very important issue. Thanks!
---------------------I assume this meeting will be filled with dire talk of school libraries closing and football teams folding... the lights being turned off the athletic fields at night and the artificial turf sold on e-bay.... Any way, In the interest of informing all I wanted to let folks know. If anyone here has a way of forwarding this to Tax Cap Yes, I would appreciate it.- I'm SO tired of hearing various town councils 'studying the implications' of the cap, and predicting horrifying results. For Pete's sake the point here is Not to go back and feebly scratch at the same old hoary budget, it's to Change the way we budget Entirely. The house is on fire people -- we're all going to lose Everything if we wait much longer. Stop bickering about who is going to shut out the lights.
- I don't know why anyone says Tax Cap Yes has run a poor campaign? I suspect one of the major reasons Tax Cap Yes suffers from poor funding is -- in addition to the back-room political reasons -- the simple Have versus Have-not factor. My $.02

When James refers to budget hearings, he is talking about the public comment the city council takes the night the approve the budget (or use to). The council now holds these meetings a week before the final meeting catching folks off guard as to the details of the budget. That is what happened last year when the Portland City Council led by James Cloutier and Jill Duson (who are running for reelection this year) to enact their ponzi scheme tax rebate program that the Maine Supreme court struck down.I had written about it in The West End News shortly after it was introduced 2 months before, but it got no play from my column denouncing it. The mainstream press did not write about it until after that budget meeting the week before. The council ended up taking some comment, but as usual did not tell the public about this in advance so only the folks they wanted to hear from gave them additional comments.They then declared that the public favored it and wasted millions of the taxpayer’s money.Steven Scharf
SCSMedia@aol.com

quote:Originally posted by George:
That's a riot. Eric Cianchette owns some of the most valuable real estate in Maine. Phil Harriman is hardly a have-not.

Kind of you. I'm here all week. I guess you're saying it would be stroke of brilliance for Cianchette and Harriman to underwrite what is supposed to be a grass-roots campaign, Themselves? Or for them to convince associates (thenceforth known as "Cronies") to fund it? Now THAT is quality humor, but not sage political advice, I think. I don't know -- I'd be very curious to know how the contributions break down. How many contributions to each side, and of what size. Although the cap has the *potential* to be beneficial to all residents, I think those who need it most and would benefit most are those who can't generally afford to dole out money to this campaign and that... That's all I'm saying.