Scott, Thanks for taking down the Boy Scouts photo. In light of all that is coming out, that photo was kinda disturbing....
For me, his suicide was an admission of guilt.
Woodcanoe's link to the letter does not work.
The link just worked when I tried it now. But if it does not work for you, it can be accessed directly from the Bangor Daily News story that I linked to in the same post.
Ditto Tardus - Excellent advice from Alter Ego. 9 times out of 10, I regretted my snap judgements. 10 times out of 10 I regretted my open snap judgements.
Vikingstar #28 post supports argument for keeping mum, in my view.
I heard he taught Ethics for Law Enforcement at MCJA.
Sounds about right. Conceptual rather than situational I guess. Plato drank his hemlock tea. And Bob? Well he owned up to his failings too. Suicide is a very personal decision.
I think my comment was an argument for caution, not silence.
Given the mans' status and community involvement I believe he could have weathered any accusations that were false!
This is a classic case displaying every issue associated around these events by public/prominent figures !
Unfortunately I think Charlie is correct !
It is so diffulcult to be positve about things at times ,when day after day ,we see breaches of trust from people ,who are supposed to be the ones ,we should be able to trust!!! Caution is warranted out of kindness to his family for sure. Yet that very caution appears to be one of many tools that is manipulated by people who are found to be unworthy of our trust!!!!!
"Caution is warranted out of kindness to his family for sure. "
Is it? I don't know ANYTHING about his family. However, the allegations are that he was kinda' living with and financing one of his 'paramours' (former kid victim?) over many years. I do NOT want to criticize anybody based on an absence of information. However, (huge IF) a family member or associate facilitated child sex abuse, that family member or associate might be an accomplice.
If a family member or associate knew and did nothing, and could have, public scorn is appropriate.
If a family member or associate was threatened, terrorized and cowed into silence, they are a co-victim, and deserving of some level of sympathy -- even public assistance.
If an associate in State service or clergy was a mandatory reporter, knew and did nothing, there may be consequences.
The investigation will go wherever the facts lead it, hopefully. The facts hypothetically COULD lead to family, associates, colleagues and friends, as co-conspirators, additional victims, or ignorant bystanders. I do not think we should necessarily give anybody plausibly connected a "pass" just because the prime defendant killed himself.
PS: The primary reason for "caution" is ensuring that any as yet undisclosed co-conspirators can get a fair trial -- just like with Lavallee Davidson. The reason for ABSENCE of "caution" as to Carlson himself is facilitation of discovery of other similar cases related to his actions. The reason for "caution" by the authorities themselves is the criminal history record information act, and the very useful ability to detect BS complainants (and there may be a few) by checking their versions against facts known only to investigators and "real" victims.
I was attempting to be kind , but agree if facts come out I will change view.
Funny one of the first thinhgs my wife said after reading BDN article was " I can't imagine someone spending money like alledged,and not knowing it"
My wife was a victim of childhood sexual abuse, at the hands of a neighbor. She is 50 yrs old and has NOT forgotten it, and never will. The memories of it will haunt her til she dies.
When she was in her early teens, she was interviewed by a deputy sherriff. She told what had happened. At that time (early 70"s) it was mostly up to the parents to prefer charges of such a crime. The decision was made that this man was a "good neighbor" and that this would damage his reputation, and that of his family. So the abuse continued!
During the 30 yrs we have spent together she has come to terms with it enough to find some peace of mind, not something many victims do! She left me for a time and spent several months alone. During that time she spent much time reading some material on the subject, and some time talking to God, as well as shedding many tears. Out of that she was able to........forgive herself, and lose the shame and guilt that she had carried around for a long time. Like most victims of this she will never really be "normal" if there is such a thing, but she has found a way to deal with being a victim, and still live a productive life.
Is she angry? Boy, I don't have the words to describe the anger. She is angry at the abuser but most of the anger is directed at those who KNEW THIS WAS GOING ON AND COVERED IT UP!
It is about power and control, more than sexual urges. And those who manipulate others are absolute masters at it. They will use every single thing they can think of to maintain that power over another, including, as in my wife's case, their reputation and good standing in the community.
I can tell you for a fact that the sanctity of childhood is more important than somebodys football team or football program, or church or other institution, or someone's "reputation".
If we cannot do everything we can to protect our children from predators, then we don't deserve to call ourselves human beings.
The fact that so many people placed the value of a football progarm above the interests of a 10 yr old boy, makes me sick to my stomach, absolutely.
If I had witnessed such an attack, as it is alleged an assistant coach witnessed, I would have done everything in my power to stop it and lock up the perpetrator. As Johnny Paycheck said, they could "take that job and shove it". Some things are more important than even a job!
Sexual harrassment charges are leveled often in our society today. These for the most part involve workplace issues. I have seen that many of these cases that have been reviewed by the Maine human rights commission have been found NOT to have merit. One could maybe infer that these charges are sometimes used to "get even" with a coworker or boss. But these for the most part are charges made by adults against other adults.
Most of us cannot imagine the courage it takes for an abuse victim, or family member, to come forward with this kind of imformation.There are feelings of shame and guilt to overcome just to start with. I do not believe that there have been many charges of child sexual abuse that have been alleged, that have not been found to be valid, and it is primarily because of how much the victim has to endure to even make the charge in the first place.
I am not trying to pile on to the memory of Rev Carlson but, because he is deceased, there will be no trial, so there will be no guilt or innocence determined in court of law. Instead we will be left to look at the available pieces and make up our own minds as to what really happened.
I feel worse for any possible victims as for them there will really not be any "closure" unless they are lucky enough to find it for themselves, as my wife did.
WC thank you !
The river of opinions can only be held back if the rain stops, despite all the efforts to keep this thread civil and fair, the ground of tolerance is saturated and its just a matter of time before the flash flooding hits.
...the sanctity of childhood is more important than somebodys football team or football program, or church or other institution, or someone's "reputation".
wc, thank you for your comments.
There seem to be a lot of posters here who interacted with the late Rev. personally. I can understand their feelings (loss, betrayal, bewilderment), but isn't this a particularly good place for "facts" to get "out there"? If a former associate of the guy knows fact A, but can't put it into context without fact B, it is a good idea to broadcast fact B -- especially if it is ONLY about the dead guy.
I'm specifically talking FACTS, not "opinion". I don't think anybody here thinks child abuse is tolerable, or that concealment of same is justifiable.
One thing's certain, we are not likely to get FACTS from the authorities until any investigation is over. Their hands are appropriately tied.
So I get (and emotionally sympathize with) your sentiment, and ordinarily (and as to pure opinion) that's a good idea. But isn't AMG kind of a unique place online? As to this particular guy?
tjc makes excellent points. (As usual.) This thread is a chronicle in real time, from the first, sketchy news of Rev. Carlson's death to the present. As a real time record by people who knew Rev. Carlson and people who didn't - I expect the opinions to be varied and, yes, changing.
The bare alleged facts are that after decades of having an ongoing intimate relationship with Reverend Carlson, the man came out to his family. Plus intervention, counseling legal and financial help to the alleged victim. No info whatsoever on when it became intimate, etc. And the paramour isn't talking.
The case has assumed the status of a Rohrschach test...
The County Sheriff has brought a lot more to the table than that. I bring NOTHING to the table in terms of facts, only suggestion for an approach.
The ideal would be a blog for specified users only. They can exchange facts (and even opinions) with the rest of us left out. If someone was interested in participating, they could email you with the basis of their need to be involved. I expect social contact over years, knowing family, etc., all might qualify. Since I've never met the guy, I as busybody would not be eligible.
I expect that uninvolved law enforcement and press would NOT be let in. Participants would realize that anything stated wouldn't be LEGALLY confidential. If useful stuff is generated -- great.
Just a thought. I know that isn't something AMG is usually for. Direct victims would likely want to NOT participate and go directly to the MSP. It'd be genuinely great to shed light, not heat, on such a topic.
The former sheriff coming to the table now brings a fact and that is time (year of his observations) the seventies.
Even the most jaded of us working in corrections particularly then, were fairly naive reference sexual abuse of this nature in the early 70's as it was not a common crime we dealt w/. I can say it wasn't something one would react to normally as a staff member and like most others we tended
to not think in those terms and given times weren't awhere of it . His response would have been quite normal at the time.
There is a factor that shouldn't have been but was very prevalent in all to many organizations that was the reluctance of administrators to act
unless you have a glossy 8x10 of the behavior i.e. solid evidence vs. suspicions. It doesn't get any easier for staff to do the right thing when a higher up is doing wrong ! Obviously what happens is the person moves on but the issue is not dealt w/.. Peoples reactions are well they are just covering up for each other, no you do not think in these terms usually on the job !
That is the time period of my wife's situation and there was institutionalized thinking all across the land then that his stuff just doesn't happen. It was probably a normal human reaction in most of us, especially back then, to not even want to think that this may have happened. And also back then, no one wanted to take the word of a child, over a respected adult member of the community.
That this happened so often, and for so long, in the Catholic Church was due to just that attitude.
As I have written before, if these allegations turn out to have substance to them, in just sheer numbers of people affected alone, between professional colleagues, friends and family, this could well be one of the most tragic stories that I have seen in Maine in my lifetime.
If the allegations indeed are seen to be valid, if that serves to open the eyes of even more of us to the existence of child abuse in Maine, something good may well come of all of this in the end, especially if this knowledge and awareness saves future possible victims.
Have used Penn State scandal as example to our offspring of when it is imperative to act, come to the rescue of young or defenseless, no matter what is happening or who may be authority figure. Could not live with self if ever witnessed such atrocities; did nothing.
WC, I know we have differed on some issues in the past but I stand strong with you and your beloved on this one!
WC, your words ring true with me. I have no way of understanding this behavior so to me it doesn't happen unless I actually see it. Then it is like seeing a UFO (if that would be like I have seen dramatized on television), you have disbelief and no data reference points, it is over the edge.
My first experience in this bizarre stuff was a walk through the woods and stumbling upon two young teenage brothers of a very low caliber family. The boys were engaged in an act of sodomy. To say I was shocked doesn't cover it. Anyway, these boys learned this stuff from a college professor (Youngstown, Ohio in the early 1980s, just for jurisdiction purposes) who was "helping" the family. He was prosecuted, I don't recall the rest of it. I believe I could say that if I stumbled upon the professor himself doing this that I would have been compelled (knee jerk reaction) to rescue the boy, however that would have progressed and the extent of injuries sustained would be pure conjecture as that did not happen.
I have trouble crying at these funerals not unlike the horrid act of murder against the two registered molesters about 5 years ago, the boy from Canada came down. This boy died on a bus in Boston I believe. I would have been interested to know how a boy in Canada found these two whether merely that they were registered in Maine or if he had some personal contact with them over the internet as they could have been unrepentant, still looking for new victims. No idea, but curious. I met a man who molested his daughter, let him know what I thought of that, and he not too long after failed to negotiate a curve with the concrete truck he was operating. I felt better about the matter.
I apologize for having to say that I still have a naivety concerning this behavior as in my world we do everything we can think of to protect and nurture all young life, from the sapling trees to the sprouts in a garden, kittens/puppies, and if that is the normal thing to do concerning these ordinary life forms, how much more the children who are a special gift and blessing.
It is just so foreign of a concept to me that it takes a while to come up to speed and confront the notion that such people could even exist. May God never allow me to let down a child who is being victimized and abused.
Warren Cole was active during the 1970’s and into the 1980’s before he had victims come out and he was put away for a few years.
When I was about 9 years old my family owned a camp on the same road at Cole’s Lodge on Notched Pond. My Grandfather spent his time at the camp and through rumors in town and his witnessing of Warren Cole passing up and down the road in his car full of young boys to spend the nights at his Lodge, it was concluded that Warren Cole was up to no good. My parents issued me a stern warning not to leave the property of the camp or wonder too far because Warren might be around.
That same summer I was fishing on beach in front of our camp alone, while all the adults were inside having conversations. Along came a small motor boat putting up the shore line and it was Warren Cole. He cut his motor about 15 feet from the beach and started to ask simple questions like how is the fishing boy. He seemed rather odd to me and then he began to ask me if I wanted to get in the boat with him and go out to deeper water where the bigger fish were. Knowing this man was shady, I dropped my fishing pole and headed for the house as I did so he sped off in his boat.
When my family learned of this they were livid with Cole. My Grandfather, a WWI survivor with a score of dead Germans under his belt, decided to take a walk by himself up to see Warren Cole for an adult conversation. Needless to say when my Grandfather got back he still looked angry. Whatever was said to Warren was enough to keep him away for a long time, the man would not even so much as look in my direction when he passed by in his car. I do recall him telling me his 308. Woodsmaster would have reached across the lake if I had gotten in that boat and I had seen him use it to splat rocks on the far shore line. It would not have been me in the sights. My Grandfather is dead now and this story can be told.
The Sheriff was told my many people, but Warren was rich and powerful and not a lot was done about the allegations until a long period of time had passed.
The only reason I tell this story is to support the lack of action in the 1970’s for sexual crimes.
Incest and sodomy are Maine's dark little secret.
No Tom not Maines' but everywhere.
Where are we now ? We have established the history of lack of attention and inferred varuious reasons all legitimate unfortunately!
We are a society that has in the last 40 years preached openess and communications etc. etc. yet this still happens.
I believe as Paul B. put in the Penn. State thread it goes to values and we seemed to have lost track of those very values collectively.
Why? I firmly believe there is a connection between our tolerance for all things be it alternative life styles or practices that have lulled us into complacency beyond our own daily lives/routines. How many peole today would confront a Warren Cole ? Not just here but outside of our
This is an extension of the thread that probably should go separtely but there are so many related issues here worthy of thought. Beyond our shock and sadness that surounds the event.
I think I need to eat a bit of crow: I didn't read the links carefully before I commented. My only excuse is that I was preparing for a minor surgery (now 'post', doing fine after a brief rough period, thank you). The more the story comes out, the worse it looks, doesn't it? NOT like the 'UniBubba'...
The funeral for Rev Carlson was held yesterday with 800 mourners and friends in attendance.
......"While mourners described the service as a tribute to the good Carlson did through his decades of work as a clergyman and advocate for the poor and struggling, there was no easy way to sidestep the circumstances surrounding his death"........
Bangor Daily News story
I agree that this is a very difficult issue for many to deal with. Rev Carlson was noted by many for the good that he did. The allegations that have surfaced have created some uneasiness about it all. I agree with the idea that "funerals are for the living" and those needing to deal with the grieving process.
One mourner, and long time friend, was quoted in the story as saying:
......."I appreciate all the concerns and sort of negative energy that surrounds all this but I think the thing I’d like to remember the most is that there isn’t any of us who doesn’t have a little dark place on us"........
If the allegations ultimately appear to be true, be it Rev Carlson, or any one of us, this would be way more than "a little dark place". I believe the man was speaking from the heart when he talked about his friend, but this attitude that it was some kind of "small thing" is wrong.
I have said before that we cannot diminish the seriousness of child abuse in any way, shape or manner. And despite all the good that any person may have done, if indeed said person turns out to have engaged in this practice there is no way that "good" cancels out "evil".
If anyone has engaged in abusing a child, our society cannot find this acceptable in any way. I can assure anyone who wants to know that victims of child abuse are given a life sentence, and nothing can undo it. Society needs to recognize that the sanctity of childhood is way more important than football, or anything else.