Tax Reform Peoples Veto Effort Has $7,000 and Gaining
- Login to post comments
WOW, I don't know who you are talking too, but people south of the Volvo line are angry about this tax scam.
Ski lift tickets are tax free, thats blatantly unfair and certainly not consistent with taxing people from away concept.
This effort can only help the GOP 'brand' in Maine.
305 people in Freeport agreed with Peter (AMGs Peter) today even with State Rep David Webster attempting to block people from signing the petition in the last 2 hours.
Steven Scharf
SCSMedia@aol.com
pressherald.mainetoday.com
Greens join with GOP to oppose tax changes
Party leaders believe the reforms hurt lower-income Mainers and make the tax system less progressive.
By MATT WICKENHEISER, Staff Writer July 29, 2009
PORTLAND — The Maine Green Independent Party announced...it would support Republican efforts on a people's veto of a tax package passed by the Legislature and signed into law by Gov. Baldacci in June.
"The new flat tax, in association with new taxes on services such as auto repair, represents a regressive tax system that favors the wealthiest few to the disadvantage of low- and middle-income Mainers," Anna Trevorrow, Green Party chair, said in a written statement.
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=273548&ac=PHnws
sweet
Republicans and Greens are not natural allies. This is an important coalition because it demonstrates that the frustration with this awful package cuts across political lines and is fundamentally an attack on working-class Maine people.
It would be great now, to have a few of the Democrat Legislators who voted against this package, stand up with the veto effort.
In fact, such a stand would bring balance. Carol Weston, who voted against the package and presumably believes it is wrong for Maine, stood against her own party's effort to veto this mess. A few Democrat legislators who were against it should now stand with the veto.
This is about Maine and what is right for our mutual future. This bill will NOT help bring about an environment that supports prosperity.
RAY: I'd say the Greens and Republicans are natural allies on maintaining the referendum process. Tactical allies on the tax "reform" issue.
That is a question without an answer. The reason is, the majority Democrats would have never allowed a income tax cut without extracting revenue from another resource to make it up.
Ray - sorry for the delay - I was on the road all day.
I'm not sure about the numbers that you've outlined regarding the single point equal to 80 million. If so, then there is a valid argument to be made to the public. Why was that not made a public point?
Listen - we have an income tax reduction in play - which you state above would never have been allowed to be done on its own. And we have a sales tax expansion that increases Mainer's financial burden in areas that I don't agree with at all (removing golf and skiing and keeping a necessity like auto is ridiculous).
But let me ask this - aren't we making more progress with an income cut than without?
Using your own argument - and if the veto passes and the bill is reversed - what's the next move?
You've already stated that the D's would never allow the income tax cut alone to take place - so what's the plan?
Assuming the deck is stacked against the GOP for now, I would think more folks would see the strategy in moving forward with this bill in place - work like heck to get GOP folks in office using the message of frustration as the fuel, motivation and rallying call.
The issue with our government is lack of long-term focus. The issue with our campaigns is lack of long term focus.
We've been dealt a terrific opportunity to make progress on multiple fronts - keep income tax cut, motivate the masses, increase the rank and with increased numbers use the influence to reduce spending and cut taxes.
The lack of vision amazes me.
The lack of vision amazes me.
NO Cary it's YOUR lack of vision that amazes me as well as Sen. Weston and the other GOPers that aren't standing up to this BS...You have no idea what the burden of collecting the sales tax is to most of the small businesses that are now affected...I know qiute a few , myself included , who have no idea how to do it and can't afford an accountant , ESPECIALLY NOW that work is very sporodic and EVERY dollar counts....I know a few guys that mow lawns , do odd jobs , ect. that can BARELY do their taxes now....God , sometimes I really wonder about the GOP and leadership here in Maine............................Better stop before I get wacked with the wooden spoon....
Hi Earl,
With all due respect, I don't see any relation to vision in your reply....merely some additional complaining.
I am a business owner and pay taxes and I do have an idea of what this means. I'm not sure what you do for a living but it sounds like you may be a business owner.
I was actually interested to hear that over 90% of the areas that are included in the expanded sales tax initiative are businesses that are already processing sales tax -auto repair included.
Another piece that I was interested to hear is that business to business activities for the most part are exempt - commercial vehicle repair included.
I attended a tax reform panel to learn about more about the bill with much controversy and asked what the training and communication plan and protocol are for businesses who will be first time collectors. I was worried that this would be an unfunded training mandate and increase the likelihood of fees and violations. I was interested to see that over 25 training seminars are already in place.
Yes I COMPLETELY understand the following facts:
1. we have more folks serving as tax collection agents for the state now
2. we have business who are first time collectors
3. the combination of the above pisses people off
Again I'm not sure why this has to be a "If your not for this your against us" kind of discussion.
In order to make positive change in our state we're going to have to get uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable but we have a piece of the pie in place and it's up to us know to fix the landscape.
We can bitch all we want but bitching and reversing votes is not going to change the status quo.
And to reply to your example of folks you know who can BARELY do their taxes now: running a business is hard. It requires more than a technical skill to be successful. There are so many components involved in making a go of it we see many businesses fail. We speak of the GOP as the party of independence and personal responsibility. Do you really believe that a lack of ability to complete a necessary skill should be a consideration for a conversation like this?
Cary,
With all due respect, this is the type of thing I always hear from people who are about to do the wrong thing, just so we can get something done. Where is the vision or something to that effect.
If there was a real and actual income tax cut, maybe I could agree with some of your thinking. Since the net effect of this income tax cut is actually something around reducing 8.5% to 7.9% .... I do not see the trade you speak of as moving the ball down the field.
If this had been about a "real" income cut and not merely a sound-byte that looks good in a headline but lacks real substance ..... they would have left the deductions and exemptions in place so that an apples to apples cut would have been in place.
I am sorry you do not share my disdain for their actions, but I believe you are being naive in your approach.
This effort disproporionately effects low-income Mainers and our seniors who were largely not paying income tax to start with and will now pay sales tax on a host of new issues ..... all at a time when working-class Maine people are struggling.
The truth is, if they had really wanted to cut the income tax, they would have simply done it. They supposedly found a 500 million cut (another statement lacking truth) so why couldn't they manufacture another 160 million in cuts to afford the income tax cut?
"But let me ask this - aren't we making more progress with an income cut than without?"
If it were a real cut, it would be one thing, but this supposed cut, when all of the other changes to the income tax code are added in, is phony. If they really wanted an income tax cut, they could cut the top rate and leave the itemized deductions alone. These "household credits" are a scam. Many income tax filers will be losers under this plan.
It reminds me of the new car salesman who told me once, "we can give you what you want for your trade-in but we will have to raise the price of the new car."
Again, this "tax reform" is all about more and steadier money to Augusta, nothing more.
Axe-the-Tax
FMI, please visit http://stillfedupwithtaxes.net
and www.MaineTaxpayers.com
We need more people to get active and help axe-the-tax!
Rep McKane - can you please elaborate on the statement that the income tax cut is false? I've done a log of information searching on that component alone and I'm not finding that to be true but I'd like to hear more information if you have it.
Thanks
Ray - do you think the existing tax structure hurts Mainers or do you feel that the current economic situation is fine?
The plan, imperfect as it is, does indeed move the ball down the field. You've already admitted that there is only limited progress that can be made at a time yet when limited progress is made you claim its a bad thing.....I'm not following the logic.
It appears to me that we are (as a party) pleading helpless in this discussion and have essentially said that the GOP will have no impact in the future of the state.
That baffles me.
Progress is hard and takes a little sacrifice. It sounds to me that many are willing to bitch but not willing to work towards the sacrifice.
Cary - you should re-read the other threads on this. Here is an older version of Al DiMillos analysis. There is a newer one out there with more info. By the way - don't forget to come to our forum tonight in Boothbay.
From A. DiMillo - CPA, former chief tax advisor, BIW, Ratheon. These calcualtions are using Maine Revenue Services numbers.
Governor Baldacci just signed a tax reform bill pushed through by House Majority Leader John Piotti, D-Unity, that advocates claim improves Maine’s tax system. I doubt very few taxpayers especially Democrats who believe in a progressive tax system would agree, if they understood all the facts. The revised plan is estimated to save Maine taxpayers $53.9 million. The bill significantly reduces the progressiveness of the income tax law. Here are some of the estimates of the impact on Maine taxpayers based on Maine Revenue Services (MRS) “Combined Incidence of Tax Reform” report:
1). A group of 22,277 taxpayers that represent 3.2% of the 665,629 Maine taxpayers are estimated to receive a $37.5 million net tax reduction or 70% of the estimated total of $53.9 million for all Maine taxpayers. Based on MRS estimates, this high income group of taxpayers pay about 23% of the total income and sales tax, so most would agree that they should get about 23% of the net tax reduction not 70%. Why does this group get three times their proportional share of the tax savings?
2). A group of 4,456 taxpayers with income over $333,388 (about 2/3 of 1% of the 665,629 Maine taxpayers) will receive in total $27.8 million of the $53.9 million net tax savings for all Mainers or 52% of the total. This group pays about 12.8% of the current income and sales taxes. This group is receiving four times its proportional share of the tax reduction (52% vs. 12.8%).
3). The MRS report estimates that all taxpayers will on average have a tax decrease of $81 or a 2.67% tax decrease. However, included in this average is a group of 4,456 taxpayers with income over $333,388 that will average a tax decrease of $6,239 or a 10.8% decrease. All other taxpayers excluding these 4,456 taxpayers will average a tax decrease of only $39 or a 1.5% decrease. Accordingly, this group of 4,456 taxpayers is to receive a percentage decrease that is more than 7 times the average of all other taxpayers.
4). The MRS report illustrates that the LD 1495 tax bill will have no favorable impact on taxes paid by the most successful small businesses. The report estimates that the 59,905 taxpayers with income from $114,104 to $333,388 will in total have a net tax increase of $813,000 or an average tax increase of $14 each. Less than 1% of Maine small businesses earn more than $333,388.
5). The MRS report estimates that the 326,000 taxpayers with income from $32,835 - $333,388 will save in total $14.7 million or just $45 per taxpayer. This group of taxpayers currently pays 73.3% of all Mainers sales & income taxes. The $45 per taxpayer tax reduction is about a 1% decrease of the average tax of $4,541. This compares to the top group of 4,456 taxpayers with income over $333,388 that will receive an average tax decrease of $6,238, which is a 10.8% tax reduction. Why does this group get an average percentage reduction of about 11 times as much as those taxpayers with income between $32,835 and $333,388?
6). The MRS report estimates that 22.6% of all taxpayers with income from $32,834 to $333,388 will have an average tax increase of $903 each or a 16% tax increase. In total 86,000 taxpayers will have an average tax increase of $439.
The proponents of LD 1495 have been very deceptive in pushing through this poorly designed tax reform package. At all turns, they tried to suppress the facts that did not favor their position. Every Democratic press release and interview disingenuously reported that Mainers will see their top tax rate go down by 2% from 8.0% to 6.5%. The revised plan increases the 6.5% to 6.835% for those earning over $250,000, so the maximum tax cut is now 1.65%. Actually LD 1495 replaces the current 2%, 4.5%, 7.0% and 8.5% income tax rates with four tax rates of 6.5%, 8.0%, 8.35% and 6.85%. The fact is that for 98% of Mainers, LD 1495 only cuts their top tax rate by 0.5% at most. The majority of taxpayers in Maine have a top tax rate of 7.0%, so the 6.5% rate is just a 0.5% cut. LD 1495 also has a tax surcharge that actually increases the top rate to 8% for married taxpayers earning over $55,000 and single taxpayers earning over $27,500. For these taxpayers, the top tax rate of 8.0% is just 0.5% less than the current maximum tax rate of 8.5%. A married couple with two children that utilizes the alternative household credit for itemizers, pays tax at 8% on all of its income from $55,000 to $250,000, then the tax rate goes up to 8.35% for the income from $250,000 to $275,000, then back down to 6.835% for all income over this $275,000 level. Only about 2% of Mainers (including small businesses) have income high enough to actually get the maximum 1.65% tax cut.
LD 1495 eliminates the current Maine income tax structure that includes deductions for exemptions and the standard deduction or itemized deductions with a tax credit. Of the 42 states with an income tax, 32 states allow itemized deductions like Maine law before LD 1495, 8 states allowed no itemized deductions and 2 states allow limited itemized deductions. Under LD 1495, Maine would allow a limited tax credit that will replace itemized deductions for some taxpayers. Accordingly, Maine will move to an income tax structure like no other state. The limiting of itemized deductions under LD 1495 results in tax increases for many middle-income taxpayers with high itemized deductions like interest, property taxes, medical costs and contributions. The limiting of itemized deductions was the main reason 31,178 taxpayers are estimated to have their income tax increase by $28.8 million or $924 each. This tax increase funds the estimated income tax cut of $32.6 million for a group of 5,362 taxpayers with income over $333,388.
The top income taxpayers will get an 18% income tax cut, while the average income tax cut for all taxpayers is only 8.7%. Democrats argue that the “small” amount of taxpayers with a tax increase is justified to get tax reform. The truth is a system to reduce income tax for 98% of Mainers could have been established by just giving all taxpayers a flat 8.7% income tax cut. Even taxpayers with income of $400,000 will save less tax under LD 1495, than if they received a flat 8.7% tax cut. LD 1495 would be better for most taxpayers with income over $400,000.
Maine taxpayers should be asking their representatives, why they supported a tax cut for the very rich that not only didn’t give meaningful tax reductions for many middle-class taxpayers, but actually increased taxes for thousands.
CARY WESTON's demand that our priority must be to work to elect Republicans is more than sloganeering. As nearly as I can tell that's exactly what he's been doing in Bangor. In this respect he and Charlie Webster have the same goals and some of the same methods.
The lack of vision amazes him. I'm being picayune here, but he should not be amazed. Strategic thinking is atypical of American politics. The Democrats have reached the point where is is no longer necessary. All they have to do is find some new project or crisis to expand the powers of government. Bush and Rove seemed to have had a strategy of seizing he middle. The clearly did not and they seemed to have eroded support on the right. I'd argue that Gingrich, whatever his disadvantages as a candidate, is the only major figure who thinks strategically.
The People's Veto effort is tactical in nature and may well help to elect more Republicans. This will be determined by outcomes, not by theoretiical arguments or pointless sniping. It remains to be determined how it can be joined to a strategy. Such a strategy will have to include limitation and reduction of the scope and expense of government. Otherwise the GOP will have no other purpose than to elect people.
Efficiency is another issue. It can be a vital element in controlling the expense of government, but it has more to do with the qualities of the individuals elected. Check over the Peoples Guide...and the Legislative Register and you will find that only a tiny percentage of the Democrats have any serious exposure to business. They are indeed the party of the government by the government. The most conspicuous exception is Bill Diamond and he is a critic of the bill.
Peter Mills, in my opinion, is convinced that he has the ideas and ability to make a more efficient government. I leave open the question of whether he is right, but I know he spends a lot of time and thought on how government actually works.
Note also, that all the GOP candidates who are running or considering running have business backgrounds, while most of the Democrats are government critters.
Personally, I get tired of the arguments that the rich garnish the greatest relief. Generally it is because they pay the most to begin with. It seems like class warfare to me. I appreciate the rich they make my quality of life better...but to the point
In my opinion some of the more important points in opposing this "reform and relief" is that there is no guarantee that the income tax deduction will be permanent, especially if the sales tax revenue does not produce the increases needed to float the big government boat. Also, I estimate when we come out of this reccesion the powers that be know that we will be spending more and the pennies will be falling from heaven into the big spenders coffers. I expect this to reform to have the same effect as LD-1, Dirigo and School Consolidation...how's that reform and relief working out for you all?
The tax scheme expands Maine’s 5 percent sales tax to scores of services and activities never before taxed, affecting thousands of small companies, trades people, technicians, mechanics and countess others "who will become tax collectors for the state, with all the accounting and paperwork hassles that entails," wrote Senator Trahan, (R-Waldoboro). He said a heavy burden will fall on people trying to keep older cars in operation; MRS estimates it will collect $25.7 million every year in taxes on motor vehicle maintenance and repair
Sen. Tahan "GETS" it...You Carey don't...
And to reply to your example of folks you know who can BARELY do their taxes now: running a business is hard. It requires more than a technical skill to be successful. There are so many components involved in making a go of it we see many businesses fail. We speak of the GOP as the party of independence and personal responsibility. Do you really believe that a lack of ability to complete a necessary skill should be a consideration for a conversation like this?
Yea , I know we are just the stupid unwashed masses and deserve to fail..Running a business isn't ONE guy mowing lawns and doing odd jobs..Do you perfer that family just go on welfare ??? Or should he go under the table and be considered a criminal ??....It's crap like this that will keep the GOP in the minority...Working People Vote Republican , My A$$.....
Cary Weston: "And to reply to your example of folks you know who can BARELY do their taxes now: running a business is hard. It requires more than a technical skill to be successful. There are so many components involved in making a go of it we see many businesses fail. We speak of the GOP as the party of independence and personal responsibility. Do you really believe that a lack of ability to complete a necessary skill should be a consideration for a conversation like this?"
So you believe it should be illegal for an excellent clown with poor math skills to open a business? Seriously, that's a condescending attitude, and if I were a working slob with poor math skills [of which there are many] I'd be offended, and I wouldn't vote for you or anyone you endorse. My understanding of government in America is that it's supposed to be a servant of the people rather than an impediment to their success. If I need my computer repaired, I want them to be skilled at repairing computers; whether they're skilled at filling out complicated forms is immaterial to me and I fail to see my government's interest in keeping such people from delivering high quality goods and services.
Here; hear.
Good points, Mike.
It’s fascinating to me this idea that some business owners not currently susceptible to collecting sales tax are somehow inferior in math skills from all those business owners who have been doing it for a long time. That to me is condescending. The argument should be against having to pay it – not because the “excellent clown with poor math skills” would have to collect it.
So you believe it should be illegal for an excellent clown with poor math skills to open a business? Seriously, that's a condescending attitude, and if I were a working slob with poor math skills [of which there are many] I'd be offended, and I wouldn't vote for you or anyone you endorse. My understanding of government in America is that it's supposed to be a servant of the people rather than an impediment to their success. If I need my computer repaired, I want them to be skilled at repairing computers; whether they're skilled at filling out complicated forms is immaterial to me and I fail to see my government's interest in keeping such people from delivering high quality goods and services.
Mike and Earl - you guys are a riot. On one hand you're all for independence and personal responsibility and on the other hand you're saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to fail just because they don't have the skills. Affirmative action anyone?
Earl, you're saying you're not good at taxes but you don't want to hire anyone to do them because you can't afford it...so how do you file taxes now?
Mike - the example you use for the computer repair person is called an employee - and there are many of them around. A skill doesn't make a business owner.
We live in a capitalistic society (at least for the immediate future) and those who do have a skill and want to own a business can. If they cannot do 2/3 of what it takes to own a business or bring someone on board who can - they will fail. That statement is not disrespectful, condescending or offensive in any way, shape or form. They will fail by either ignoring the law or ignoring their business. Either way, it's their personal responsibility to run their business according to state and federal law - as well as the many other challenges presented - regardless of how good they are at math or fixing computers...that's just a fact.
Not sure why you're offended by me saying that. And by the way, you're injecting words into my mouth. Never did I say that only selected folks can start a business. I did say that it's hard and requires more than a skill.
Cary,
You and I see the world through different lenses. I have spent a lot of time over the last few years looking at how we can change our tax structure.
My personal belief is we should eliminate the income tax and broaden the sales tax to all non-life-essential items. Others may disagree but I believe very strongly that this approach will strengthen our state.
With that said, this bill was very much about getting something done and very little about doing what is right.
I do not personally believe the GOP can have no impact on this issue. In fact, I believe Webster taking this issue on may in fact rally the party, inspire some candidates to run and if an effective strategy is devised to capitalize on the un-rest that exists in Maine by average people, get us closer to a working majority. I already know of three people who have been inspired to run for the State Legislature because they see the GOP standing up for something.
I believe this tax increase package is bad for Maine. It hurts working class Maine people at a time when they cannot afford any additional economic burdens. It particularly hurts fixed income seniors and low income workers who pay little income tax to start with.
You and I see the world differently.
I see a drop of 8.5% to 7.9% as nothing and you see it as something.
If you are so sure you are right, have you asked the question: Why didn't they leave the deductions and exemptions in place and simply lower the rate while doing their sales tax expansion?
Truth is, this is a sham designed to say one thing in the headlines and political flyers and do something entirely different in reality.
Put everything else aside and ask yourself this one question.
If this was truly designed to be revenue nuetral, lower the burden on Maine people while targeting tourists ..... why were ski lift tickets removed from the sales tax expansion in the final version of the bill LD 1495?
Cary, you and I are very different people who believe very different things. Surely, however, you do not really believe that this bill was passed and signed into law because it was designed to benefit working class Maine citizens?
That is not a personal attack, but rather a statement of fact. We are very different people with very different beliefs. I say that is what makes the world go 'round, so let's agree to disagree.
Ray,
Agreed.
Cary
I had a response written but Carrie's post speaks for its self...I'm DONE....
Maine is one of the most beautiful places on the face of the earth, but where job opportunities are limited by our high taxes used to support all variations of entitlement programs. Regardless of the left wing rhetoric this is an unsustainable system.
If you want tax reform then let's debate a flat tax or no income tax and an across the board sales tax. What we get from politicians in Augusta and Washington are thousand page bills that no one can read or understand. Why not apply the KISS method. Keep it Simple Stupid!
Easy answer. Because if the tax system is made simple then there is no room to create tax breaks for favored constituencies and maintain political power and influence. If you can't give away other people's money then there's no power, so why be a politician?
Thank you for that, MAINELION. Enact a definitive reform, reducing the tax and administrative burdens, and the voters' gratitude will be exhuasted in a couple of years. Tinker, tinker, tinker and you got a project that will keep you in office until you retire, die, or go to jail. Spend two years in office working like a beaver on oversight to save money so that you can boast of saving $300,000,000 and claim to have saved your fellow Americans a dollar a head. Ho-hum. Send $60,000,000 in earmarks to your district and you are a hero.
- Login to post comments
Ray - great posts.