Driving 'Em Crazy in Alabama: Lesson for Maine?

I predict a sharp upturn in the Pagan and Wiccan attendance records.

The article said something about 47 local churches participating in the program. I'm thinking your prediction will be incorrect.

What if it's not? Is that still okay? The point being, religious choice is supposed to be free in America, and if one of the juveniles wants to spend his Sundays at a Pagan gathering, is that what the judge had in mind? Is that what your own support for the program means?

Sep 23, 6:08 PM EDT

ACLU: Ala. town cannot impose church sentences
AP

BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) -- ...snip

(ACLU) ... to send Bay Minette officials a letter demanding that they suspend the program. While (ACLU) ... says it supports alternative sentencing programs... it believes the plan in Bay Minette violates the Constitution, state ACLU Executive Director Olivia Turner said ....

Source

You're absolutely right. What was I thinking? It would be far better to send someone to jail and have him/her pay a fine, and be supported 24/7 while incarcerated by taxpayer dollars. While in jail, for misdemeanor offenses, it would give the miscreant an opportunity to learn new criminal skils and associate with other miscreants, who could mentor him/her about new or different tricks of the criminal trade. The more "bad" people one associates with, especially in the close quarters or confines of a jail, the more likely one will improve oneself and become a productive citizen, right? I'm sure that would help, especially compared to the alternative where he/she could still be free, go to church once a week, meet with a pastor and the local police once a week, and have an opportunity to learn about real freedom (freedom of the soul, freedom from sin, freedom to make positive choices, the freedom of Christly forgiveness), about how to contribute to society, and about how to be a "square" citizen, one who accepts responsibility, has/gets/keeps a job...you know, those sort of things. What was I thinking?

Clearly, you weren't thinking about the Constitution.

No matter how much we might "like" someone else to adopt and embrace our own way of thinking, we don't have the right to enforce it - and that goes for "bribery" like dangling alternative criminal sentencing like "church time," instead of jail time.

I've read the constitution, and I did not comprehend where this was a prohibited form of criminal punishment. I defer to your expertise.

What if the "alternative sentencing" program offered a weekly attendance at a Democratic Youth Camp? Is that okay?

The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how much you might think someone could benefit from Christianity, we don't have the right to bribe or coerce them into embracing the religion.

Perhaps you missed the part about the convicted having a choice? That's not a bribe, nor is it coercion. And, as an aside, nothing would be gained if the court were to allow the convicted to go to an organization that espoused the same liberal values that most likely contributed them being brought before the court in the first place.

The perpetrator either knew his act would result in some form of punishment before he committed it or he should have known. We take care of the latter case if the perpetrator is of a certain age and his education was deficient in which case he receives a rap on the wrist, no record kept and his education now complete.

We come into this world innocent and our early education is to learn the limits of our own activities. Even if our parents have taught us what is good and bad we are always tempted to push the envelope but don't for fear of what we know will be the consequences. Beeding hearts who think that punishment should be rehabilitation have nearly succeed to completely eliminating capital punishment as a deterent to murder. They fail to reaize that their minority position has put a burden of $miilions on the rest of society to keep them incarcerated. I say it is time to bring back the stocks and servitude.

Hey, at least stocks are non-denominational. I say we go with stocks, too.

When I was flying on the Polaris Project at Cape Canaveral I had a crewman from Newark, NJ. He was very black and a good dancer. The southern girls liked him a lot. One night he cussed out an Orange County deputy. He didn't show up for work in the morning and it took me two days to find out where he was. I rode out to the prison camp where he was being held without bail. He was digging up cyprus stumps in a swamp. He was very happy to see me. He toned it down a lot.

Dig up cyprus stumps in a gator and snake infested swamp or go to church. We know now what the ACLU recommends. It's the man's right to alligators and snakes.

Two months later on the way back to Lakehurst, NJ we decided to fly across the Chesapeake Bay tunnel which was under construction. We developed a rough running engine which led to an engine failure. We autorotated to one of the tunnel islands. When we got out, there was Joe in the cargo doorway with our three suitcases, a Mae West on each suitcase. I said, "Joe, What are you doing?

He said, "Hey man, them's my clothes." I hope Joe is still alive.

Naran, I hope you get caught for J-walking. Your sentence will be one year to the likes of Jim and Tammy Fay Baker.
( you can watch the re-runs)

Sorry, but I'm allergic to excess amounts of mascara .... on either gender.
:)

I predict a sharp upturn in the Pagan and Wiccan attendance records.

That's an interesting statement.

What makes you think that Pagans and Wiccans wouyld be more likely to attract the criminal element if those were required to go to church?

Since belief in a "higher power" translates well to belief in the power of the state, this is probably seen as a good thing by statists.

Should we subject convicts to evil lies and ridiculous superstition in order to make them "better" citizens? Probably not.

Because the average, rebellious teenaged perp is going to perceive those as more "fun" than attending a session of "regular" church.

Because the average, rebellious teenaged perp is going to perceive those as more "fun" than attending a session of "regular" church.

Hmmm...

Should we subject convicts to evil lies and ridiculous superstition in order to make them "better" citizens?

So, J Fred, I see you are arguing against atheism, evolution and relative morality.

Tom - think bonfire, twinkling stars, chanting and fun clothing. Pagans have a very nice time. :)

Tom, if you don't think that evolution is a fact, there's not much hope for you to understand that religion is bronze age bull-oney and that ethics and morality happen in spite of belief in gods.

I can see Moses now....."Sorry, folks. After wandering around in the desert thinking that murder, rape, perjury are just fine, I now have it on Good Authority that those things aren't kosher after all."

No. We invented morality and god, not the other way around.

Tom, if you don't think that evolution is a fact, there's not much hope for you to understand that religion is bronze age bull-oney and that ethics and morality happen in spite of belief in gods.

Hmm... no intermediate species found... But, yes, evolution must be a FACT.

But we don't need to go there.

Hey, I have a question for you. If you do believe in evolution, do you think that it is just a random function of nature, or is there an "intelligent design" behind it?

j Fred:

Actually the opposite is true. We are endowed by our creator not by the state; a state that can grant rights can also take them away. Secularism is a movement to replace god with the state and would be in the sense that you use it an evolution rather than an adherence to our constitution.

And to your last comment, belief in god is no more far fetched than a belief that we sprung from the primordial ooze, both require faith.

Where's your proof of god?

Where's your proof of rising from the dead?

That which can be asserted without proof can be refuted without proof.

Evolution IS a fact. You may quibble with human evolution, but every other life form evolves and serious scientists know that humans evolved, too.

The truth WILL set you free.

Edited to add @Eric Low..... Where'd the fossils come from? How about our ancestral bones? Come on. The bible just doesn't make sense.

As Ben Franklin said, in order to see through the eye of faith one must close the eye of reason.

Or as Mark Twain said: faith is believing in something you know ain't true.

Great Americans, both.

Where's your proof of god?

Umm.. Gosh, where'd all this stuff around us come from?

From a couple of calicified bones you extrapolate this whole idea that the world around us rose up from just about NOTHING... and then you turn around and have trouble with the idea that the delicate and complex world around us could be attribuatble to an intellegent designer?

Hmmm... Just who is extrapolating based on evidence here?

Life, including human life, as a random occurance from the primordial ooze or that there is a god that set it all in motion, which is a bigger leap of faith?

You couldn't accept a complex assertion in any scientic field without first accepting the basics - algebra, logic, etc.

By the same token it's not necessary to accept the entire Bible at first blush.

Start off by accepting God. Then we'll tell you more about him.

But we'll start off with milk, and then move you up to solid food later.

...serious scientists know...

Serious scientists also *know* that man is causing global warming. So, your point is what, exactly?

Tom, I ate "meat" for 30 years only to find out that it was toxic tofu.

If you knew that something to which you dedicated your life to turned out to be absolutely false and ultimately detrimental to the human race, what would you do?

I love humanity therefore I speak up.

I want peace and prosperity. Religion and government stand in the way.

I ate "meat" for 30 years only to find out that it was toxic tofu.

Horsehockey. You were convinced by someone else to believe their point of view, no different from any religion or ancient scientific 'fact'. The fact you were still alive after the 30 years of eating it, and carnivores are living to all ages point to the fact meat is not 'toxic'.

I also fail to see how religion stands in your way to your own peace and prosperity, except if you choose for it to do so. Government with the regulations, but religion? Please explain.