apondsong, my Uncle used to have a saying that seems to apply to you: "You would bitch if they hung you with a NEW rope." In case you are not familiar with the "old Maine" saying it just means you complain alot. ;-)
I see you constantly complain about private property rights and night hunting for 'yotes. The night hunting has been going on for at least 20 years as I participated in the very first season. It's nothing new and you have to brave some nasty elements in order to participate. It's ccccccccccoooooooollllllddddddddd at night in the winter so I doubt there are many "regulars" having tied it myself I also know it isn't the cake walk of dog slaughter you sem to believe it is.
Snaring is also something you jump all over. Most of the professional game management people I talk to all over the United States seem to think it is not only usful but a necessary deer management tool in areas where 'yotes have risen to the numbers they are in some areas. While I understand the concern for OTC kills (othe than coyote) I just spent several hours talking to someone who snares on tribal land and they do it with no bait and virtually no OTC kills. I am not going into detail but it is cleaver and I can't wait to try it myself when such issues arise. They have never caught a lynx or eagle or any other usual target ofthe hatred of snaring. Is your new mission in life to save the coyotes, having given up on the terrible bear hunters or is i something else? I follow your posts at times but we have never discussed it so I am curious of your offense to it. Really.
On private property rights, I have a little chunk of land and I would love to be able to hunt on it on Sunday since I have little time during the work week. Do MY private property ights extend to making my own decisions on MY land or is that somehow an act that would infringe on someone else? Again, since you have so many opinions I am curious of your viewpoint.
Talk to me APS and edumacate me. I am all ears. :-)
You would bitch if they hung you with a NEW rope." In case you are not familiar with the "old Maine" saying it just means you complain alot. ;-)
One of my favorites is, "you'd kick if you were in swimming." Neither one makes sense. Guess that's why I like 'em.
You say you are "all ears" Mr. BS professional. Does that mean you are related in any way to Dumbo? :>) Ok. So...that being said: I personally perfer not to carry on conversations with insults and insulting little snippet quotes. It isn't very mature. Let's act like adults, shall we?
Hunting deer with dogs was a Maine "tradition". Maybe we should reinstate it...no? Tradition trumps all ? Hummmmmm.... I don't think so.
Wicked busy day today; will write a respectfull response this evening (hopefully).
apondsong, you lost me completely. Nothing I said was meant to be an "insult or insulting little snippet quotes." Absolutely nothing at all. That's why I put the smiley emoticon there. Maybe a bad attempt a humor that didn't translate I guess. Sorry about that. I have been following the thread a little and just noticed you were very irritated by some of the things discussed and I tried to lighten it up a little. That's all. Please re-read it and maybe it will make sense knowing my intentions.
I am sincerely curious about the questions I asked as I am a little confused where all the aggrivation seems to be coming from. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't say anything about hunting deer with dogs (though they do that in other States where it is not considered a bad, or unsporting) thing but I don't know much about it. Not even really interested. I'll go to the grave scratching my head over how several hunting methods can all happen at the same time and while one if fine in one location it is considered a horror in another. That's why I am not interested or get involved in the "what's fair" issue, because it is based on emotion and not science or logic. People will always disagree and I am not into purse fights. No time for that stuff as I have a "real" life, far away from my keyboard.
Now, back to the topic at hand, I do have a slight interest in the 'yote issue (happy to learn whatever I can, whenever I can) and I am interested in hunting on MY OWN property regardless of the day the calender says it is, so that is why I asked the questions I did.
Sorry again about offending you somehow in my first post. It wasn't my intention to do so.
Hey Big Shooter,
I think APS laid the problem of hunting 'yotes with dogs pretty well in an earlier post. For the past couple of years I have received calls and emails from distressed landowners in six of my seven towns about packs of dogs with radio collars running over their property, traipsing through their gardens, fighting with their dogs and terrorizing livestock with the owners nowhere to be found. I've been invited to meetings at constituents' homes over the issue and we even called in the director of landowner relations and local game wardens to discuss the problem. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to resolve the problem and it continues. Lately I have been hearing disturbing reports of landowners and hunters getting into heated exchanges, so I strongly feel the issue needs to addressed. I welcome hunters to step forward to the table so we can figure this out. However, after reading through SAM's list of suggestions, I just don't feel it offers any meaningful solutions
Hey. No problem BS ! Just don't be pissing on my leg and then telling me it's raining and we'll do just fine. :0) Besides, I think I just might git to like ya if we ever had a chance to meet sometime. Even if we do come from opposite sides of the swamp !
Now, I'll just overlook that bear comment. But just to clear things up BRIEFLY. Although I don't consider baiting a bear and then shooting it, hunting...I'd support that method over trapping and hounding them anyday.
Now, I'd be happy to talk coyotes with you Big. And I guess it has been 20 years since you've been hunting them at night, if you think it has to be coooooooold outside to do it. Summer...Spring....Winter....and into some of the Fall.
I really don't know who you've been talking to...BUT I DO know that the game wardens out my way have been pleading with the landowners to get legislation passed so they can arrest people who are running their dogs on the property of folks who do not want them there.. As it stands now, the people can be arrested for trespass...but dogs don't count. And when it comes to coyote, bobcat or bear, the dogs are looking to tear them apart when they catch up with them. MANY Mainers just don't want this happening on thier property...they don't like it. Period. And they want the wardens to be able to have a law with some teeth in it so it can be ended..and the wardens want that as well.
I have only heard ONE wildlife biologist say that killing as many coyotes as possible will do one mite of good....OR that the coyotes are killing off the deer herds here in Maine. That is Jerry Levigne. The wardens and biologists by an overwhelming majority know the good the coyote can do for Maine's ecosystem as a keystone predator, and what few deer are taken, is natural and perfectly acceptable. That's what I've been hearing Big. One warden said to me: " I never said this " before he let me know how much he supports the coyote in our state; God is my wittness.
Now. I hear your pain about private property rights and hunting on Sunday if you own the land. But hey...you don't have to buy a license I don't think. That's not half bad. Am I wrong on that? I might be........ I'm sure somebody will tell us one way or the other. I, personally, wouldn't have a problem with it...as long as it was the landowner who does the hunting. Probably the wardens like that one day of relative quiet...I dunno. They work awfully long hours come November....... But. Hey. I say...your land....hunt on Sunday if you'd like. Just don't kill over the limit. We be good.
Snaring. I can't support it. Nor trapping. sorry. Me, ....I feel it is an unnecessary cruelty to a sentinent being. We don't need fur anymore, and I just don't get the desire to cause prolonged anguish to an animal for fun or sport. I think trapping is dying its own natural death as people becomes more "aware". Now. Don't be calling me soft-hearted, Big. You're the one that wants to snare coyotes because of Bambi. JUST SAYIN' !
Well....did I edumacate ya a wee bit on my point of view? Hope so. Not that it will change your mind or nuthin'. BUT......
Talk to me......I'm all ears. ;>)
Exactly Andy. The arrogance of these guys who run dogs is sickening. I don't know how many times I've heard: " The dogs can't read ". And one fellow told me...I'm just running my dogs, I'm not going to shoot anything." Lovely. Much better to have an animal be run to exhaustion and torn apart than shot. Give me a break.
Thank you Andy, for caring about property owners rights. VERY REFRESHING and LONG overdue !!!
We need a law......not (yet another) lecture to the "hunters" on good manners.
Ok, I think I found the disconnect and should have read a few pages back before posting. Were as indicated by the post before yours by Mr. O'Brien, you all were talking about hunting with dogs and assumed I was too. I know little about hunting for 'yotes with dogs as I have never participated in it and know little about it. It seems we were having 2 different conversations. My bad.
Yup, thanks for the civil reply. That's all I wanted in the first place was a rational discussion and to learn something. While its obvious that the wardens and biologists I have spoken with don't seem to talk with the ones you talk with, it seems we are back to square 1 on the snaring issue. I thought the biggest problem in snaring was OTC kills and the "no bait" method I just learned about may help quell some of those concerns. Now I see it is just snaring and trapping in general you oppose so I guess there is no sense beating a dead horse. I don't trap recreationally and have never snared, its just something I have been keeping my ears open on and wanted to continue learning.
Thanks for the answer and sorry, again, for the misunderstanding in my first post on this page.
You said "we need a law". Care to comment on mine?
It is already illegal to shoot into someone's posted land.
If it is my land, I should not be required to suffer some other person's dogs to run across it. I believe property rights trump "dog rights".
I disagree with APS on her view of the sanctity of coyotes. She has a point about property interest, with which I agree.
Big: Well good enough. It's discussions like the one we just had that makes AMG a quality website, ( imho, of course ).
And...always happy to talk coyote with you. ahhhouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. ;) (must be that full moon)..............
TJC: Yes ...indeed ! I will surely take some time here to respond to your suggestions.
Two things: Don't assume gender and .....SANCTITY of coyotes ? Would you care to explain how you got that impression ? My hope is that I speak plainly of their value in Maine's ecosystem. I cringe at the thought of anybody thinking I hold them in any sort of elevated esteem !
IN SHORT: The Eastern coyote is deserving of neither title: Vermin nor Angel. They are here, and they play a significant role in our woods and fields. It is a grave mistake to think the only good coyote is a dead one. And much harm can be done in areas where this is held as "truth". I encourage people to read more about them and attend coyote lectures by Main wildlife biologists ( carnivore experts ) when offered in your area. There is a real effort going on, to help the general public understand this animal and its ways; and then they can decide for themselves how they wish to respond to them. Education is key....not one-sided propaganda. And both sides have their radicals. SO, seek the middle ground and learn is my encouragement.
thejohnchapman, you completely lost me here too. When did I indicate it was OK to shoot into someones land? You can sleep well at night knowing I know very well where ALL my rounds go and I shoot more in a month than most do in a lifetime, guarenteed. :-)
Same with the "dogs" issue? I don't know anything about the "dogs" conversation you guys were having nor have I commented on it.
That said, I own land, about a mile deep and 1/2 as wide. I have a major snowmobile/atv trail running right through the center. As long as people behave themselves I am fine with "sharing" it. I do get an occasional tresspass issue during hunting season and handle it by allowing friends and neighbors out there to "police" it for me which they do handily. I have had a gate and some signs shot-up with birdshot and a game camera stolen once so I can sympathise with with those irritated with abuse, but to be honest, a dog or two running around my land that I can't even see or hear doesn't even register on the "give a crap scale". Like I said before I don't know how I became involved in the middle of the "hunting with dogs" issue in the first place. I couldn't care less personally but if you (or anyone else for that matter) don't want dogs, people, hunters, bird-watchers, wardens, etc on your land that is COMPLETELY up to you. I also agree with landowners rights to the fullest extent. On my land, what I say, goes. Period. That's why I bought it.
This has been the most confusing thread I have ever stepped into.......
TJC. I just spent 30 minutes writing my response and then the whole deal got erased. Unbelieveable !!
Severely Edited Version: I like your ideas. Have some concerns and you'll need further clairifications on my behalf.
Important that individuals running dogs have written permission from landowners. Why? Big problems relying solely on POSTED signs and marks: A good idea when reasonably possible to do...even then; problems with enforcement due to vandals and land types.
Maine Guides collect good money from people wanting a bearskin rug or mounted bobcat. Some run dogs (who do all the hunting)....and then drive in the woods on ATV's or snowmobiles to make the kill...if the dogs haven't already done so. That has to be kept in mind when considering the amount of fine when trespass occurs.
I don't think its 'acceptable' to hand a landowner $100 after a trespass has been comitted. Bribe? Good-faith recompence? dunno....... Sounds ok up front...but too many other factors come into play; unfortunately. Taken at face-value ...Mistake made/ Agreeable restitution...not bad.
Welcoming discusions and questions.
Mr. O'Brien....interesting that YOU receive all these complaints about dog hunters, and lo and behold, you're in APS's domain....lol. No wonder....how many other representatives have these number of complaints and meetings, I just wonder....lol. Tell us, for the record....do you know APS personally? I betch ya do.........
BigS...I so enjoy when you jump into a discussion with reason and sense, thanks.
I actually don't know if I know APS, but I have a feeling I do. He/she has not disclosed his/her secret identity. I'm not sure if I understand what you're getting at unless you think that I have two user names and I've been logging on as someone else to raise the issue and then compliment my own bill. That would actually be pretty funny...and sad. Do you have anything to add on the issue of hunter/dog/landowner relations?
JCMCARDS: Just to help ease your mind: I have written to Andy in the past about this problem, as have plenty of others. He is, afterall, my representitive. I shook his hand once, and told him I appreciated his willingness and courage to hear and act on behalf of landowners rights ! Other than that, I don't know Andy from a hole in the ground, and probably wouldn't recognize him in a crowd, unless it was a crowd of legislators.
Is my big sin contacting my senator and representitive when I have a concern ? Well...so much for "God bless America", Jcmcards.
Do you have anything to add on hunter/dog/ landowner relations?
For the record, APS and A.O'Brien are two different people.
"Mistake made/ Agreeable restitution...not bad."
That is, indeed, my theory. The "Hunsky" only applies:
-- For the first instance ( Subsequent crossings are $400 per)
-- Where no damage occurs
-- Where no attack occurs
-- Where the trespasser turns him/herself in to landowner.
In all other "dog running" situations, larger damages would apply, and in some cases, criminal penalties and attorney fees.
Now, in terms of destruction of boundary markers -- I'm thinking that may be a similar issue, with BIG damages to issue for such destruction -- plus attorney fees. That might be so lucrative that some contractors might want to sign up to "beat the bounds" for you.
In response to your earlier post -- I was simply pointing out that the legislature has already addressed land entry of something other than one's physical person. Loosing dogs and bullets both generate potential problems for adjoining owners -- except that bullets are harder to control when a red squirrel runs in front of them.
Welcoming discusions and questions.
TJC: Well...by gorry ~~~~~~~> Two Thumbs UP !!!
As much as you will hear some whine and squwak. This would help keep the abusers of hunting privlidges in check, and still keep land open to those who are responsible. When it comes to running dogs...just get permission and then act responsibly or suffer the consequences. A breath of fresh air for landowners and good sportsmen all the way around, if you ask me. And looooooong overdue.
With laws like that...watch the landowner and hunter relations start to improve substantially. And it is my hope and thinking that a significant number of POSTED signs will no longer be needed; especially in the "hot spots" ...which tend to be prime hunting areas.
Is this the same George Smith with the elitist new travel column in the so-called "Real Life" section of the Sunday paper? MaineToday Media?
Alter Ego: I don't know. He seems to have disappered into cyberspace. Guess he's not one for civil discourse on AMG. oh well.......
It would be interesting to have him stick around. Maybe he just wanted to plug his website...(dunno). John Champmans proposal showed much better insight into this matter than Georges ( imho ). So what does that tell you.
Gotcha TJC. I thoughtI may had mised somehing in an earlier post. Thanks for the clear-up.
Hound dog almost causes car accident today. The brainless wonder of an owner had his truck parked right by a curve AND hill. Cars coming in both directions, me behind one of them. Car coming from behind the truck swerves around the truck and BINGO...two other cars coming in the opposite direction. It was a miracle the dog or somebody in one of the cars wasn't killed.
This is the second time I have come across this kind of deal. The other was on Rt. 3....dog owners were standing in the road, waving at cars to slow down... four dogs were running up and down the highway !!! This is the next issue that needs to be looked at; people running dogs too close to main roadways. I still can't believe that dog wasn't run over today.
There is a leash law. Moreover, if they caused damage via violation of same, they are liable.
If I had a choice between a crash and gooshing an animal -- no choice at all really. I wouldn't be happy about it. Just realistic.
Well...no big surprise that it was collared with a radio antenna attached. Yet another "gentleman" hunting coyotes by chasing them down with a dog. I'm thinking if it's a "hunting dog", the leash law won't hold water. This type of situation is becoming more and more frequent as the self-appointed Coyote Hunting Network heroes 'do thier thing' around built up townships and by well traveled roadways. They're forcing themselves to be regulated. Fine by me. ( no pun intended )
If any of the cars involved had been going any faster...and plenty DO...there would have been an accident; one dead dog for sure.
"I'm thinking if it's a "hunting dog", the leash law won't hold water."
Your thinking is correct.
On another note, it has been reported to me by our "backwoods spies", that the retreat of the elite has begun on RQ's land.
Someone was spotted staying at Roxy's Riter's Retreat near Haskell Deadwater for the last few weeks, ATVing to some of the better fishing spots on the East Branch and generally enjoying the fruits of his past associations in the north woods.
The scuttlebut is that he will be at Lunkasoos Camp next.
How much is a former SAM executive director going for these days??????
For the record....I do happen to know that A. O'brien and APS are different people (My point was the 'number of complaints" was driven by 'one person=APS). My interjection of land owner/hunting/coyotes/dogs was heard by many reps/and senators as well as others....way early in this thread, I said I would get involved, and did. Just to clarify....as I happened to revisit this thread.