Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

SNOWE’S STATEMENT ON SCIENTIFIC REPORT LINKING HUMAN ACTIVITY TO GLOBAL WARMING

February 5, 2007

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senator Olympia J. Snowe (R-ME), a ranking member of the Subcommittee on Oceans, Atmospheres, Fisheries and Coast Guard, issued the following statement in response to the report released today by the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that confirms human activity is driving global warming:

“The summary report released by the IPCC is a direct call for Congress to advocate policies that decrease our country’s manmade greenhouse gas emissions; the primary cause of global warming. With science indicating a ninety-percent certainty of a direct link between human activity and climate change, Americans must take hold of this window of opportunity to reduce our current levels of carbon dioxide. We can no longer contest the consequences of global warming and must heed the urgent call for action in Congress.

“In the same way September 11th established a new precedent of terrorism and the need for improved national security and Hurricane Katrina proved the unforgivable destruction of natural disasters – let this be our wake up call to the alarming threat of global warming. We must take into account the recommendations of the world’s top scientists who, in the IPCC Summary, point to significant ramifications to the American economy, the global environment and millions of people in semi-arid subtropical regions, such as Africa. The report confirms that the world can no longer afford the price of inaction.

“I will continue to champion domestic climate change legislation, like the Global Warming Reduction Act, that I introduced this week with Senator Kerry to persuade people in my home state of Maine and across the country to reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases. Besides capping pollution through a mandatory carbon cap and trade program, our plan provides for a Climate Investment Fund to be used for investment in clean energy research and technology, such as demonstration projects for carbon sequestration, a Production Tax Credit for wind energy production and research on ocean acidification to grasp what increased deposits of CO2 into the ocean will affect the throughout the marine food chain. The bill also calls for vehicle greenhouse gas emissions standards for cars and lighter trucks, following the stringent California standards, which Maine and other Northeast states have pledged to follow.

[b]“A global threat of this urgency and magnitude can no longer be ignored – for storms will brew stronger, sea levels will rise faster, and days will grow warmer for populations around the world. Now is the time to break the cycle and start playing an active role in our collective futures.[/b] Let us safeguard the very environment that surrounds us – from the picturesque coastlines and sprawling lands that define our homeland – we must protect the very places where we build our families and shape our lives.”

The report is the Summary for Policymakers that will be followed by three major studies that compromise The United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change fourth scientific assessment. The IPCC report was written with the input of more than 1,200 authors and 2,500 scientific expert reviewers from more than 130 countries.

For a direct link to the study: http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf

[url=http://snowe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.PressRelea...

pmh
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

"...the primary cause of global warming...."

Perhaps if she had said, "the primary ADDRESSABLE cause of global warming"?

The Distributist
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

[quote]I will continue to champion domestic climate change legislation, like the Global Warming Reduction Act, that I introduced this week [b]with Senator Kerry[/b] to persuade people in my home state of Maine and across the country to reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases.[/quote]
oy vey...

Mark T. Cenci
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

OK, first she and hubby move into a 2 bedroom mobile home. And give up the fleet of cars. Maybe get around on mopeds.

Mike Travers
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Dances With Democrats.

GW Rudmin
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

They're insane in the U.S. Senate.

Vikingstar
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

I wonder how many people will die, from lighter and even less safe cars and trucks, to "save" us from global warming...

Mark T. Cenci
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

The tax assessor's data in the Town of Falmouth lists their house as valued at 512,500 on a lot assessed at 855,700 for a total value of 1,368,200.

The card is not on line so I can't tell you how many square feet comprises their $512,500 building. But I'm guessing it's a lot.

I'm guessing it takes a lot of oil to heat. I'm guessing it takes a lot of lights to light. I'm guessing they own a lot of cars. I'm guessing they jet around more than you do.

I'm guessing it isn't their only house.

I'm guessing Senator Olympia Snowe is a despicable hypocritical, pandering, power-mad pol, who jumps at the chance to use her power to limit you, while exempting herself.

But it's only a guess.

alantoth
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Freedom is not a thing onto itself

Mark Cenci

“When looking at 219,000 years of earth temperature history, it is the current, lengthy period (10,000 years) of relative temperature stasis that is out of the ordinary.”

Here is another way to look at it Mark. It may be that the spike upward (it only takes a few degrees to alter things dramatically) is the product of the industrial revolution that went hand in hand with the celebration of absolute human autonomy, rationality’s supplanting of revelation as a culturally formative spirit and the new faith in progress and human perfectibility this gave rise to. In short a new religion of the human spirit told us that there were no limits on human behavior, we could make new rules for living and they would be based on science not religion. If the chickens do eventually come home to roost perhaps there is a connection between a lie about life and some of the problems we now face.

The world we now live in could hardly be said to be in a state of stasis. The lack of global stasis ironically revolves around the, here, disputed claim of global warming brought on by fossil fuels and our (the west, America in particular) oil dependent culture. This polluting commodity is controlled by nations that are vulnerable to terrorist versions of Islam. If one permits these realities fossil fuels become the twofold child of hell. They contribute to the undoing of our physical environment and threaten to destabilize our social environment as well. You will argue against this because, as you have demonstrated in other threads, your confidence is in the ability of science and technology to come to our rescue and deliver us from the consequences of failed leadership (the oil embargo of 1973 was enough of a warning about our nation’s need to wean itself from oil dependency) and from the consumptive way of life this bred. A science that fails to take the idea of limits on human behavior seriously will never be able to deliver humanity from the consequences of the false faith it has helped to spread. If science is to help the current situation it will have to accept a more humble role and allow itself to be directed by values that are higher than absolute human autonomy. I don’t see that happening in our culture driven as it is by preoccupations with power and profit.

Attic Owl

“And there is not much of any reflection on what good must result from these alleged things. There are business opportunities tied up with this.”

Here’s a metaphor for our discussion: A man and a woman, in rebellion against any limits on their behavior, have been living in prolonged promiscuity. So far neither of them sees pregnancy or a STDs becoming the inevitable result of such behavior. Does this mean there are no consequences for living without limits? Is it wrong to live as if limits were an important part of being human? Or put it this way: If belief in a human factor in global warming is evil what is it that makes it evil?

If global warming is real and may result in gradually mounting effects that make the planet less habitable but this is only part of the natural order what, then, does this say about God? If there is nothing to human accountability in all this then there must be something wrong with how he made things? If you don’t believe there was anything wrong in how he made things then what do you do with human accountability in our present age?

Find me the good in culturally formative promiscuity and I will show you a view of life that has failed to embrace the necessity of limits on its behavior. No culture can survive by rejecting limits and giving itself over to the lie that humanity has the right to make its own rules. That might be good for a bald set of business interests but rebellious living in any realm of human existence does not a good future make.

Mark T. Cenci
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Alan, the only stasis I refer to is a relative temperature stasis following the abrupt and large warming trend at the close of the last glaciation. Compare the temps of the years 15,000 years before present until now, and the temps of the years 130,000 years before present to 115,000 years before present. The difference is striking.

All I am saying is that we are more likely to be threatened with plunging temps and another glaciation than runaway warming.

The entire Industrial Revolution is but an appendage at the very end of the temp graph.

Your points about freedom, technology, science and a Godless culture are worthy of discussion, but have absolutely no bearing on [i]any[/i] of the data shown on this graph.

FLAMMENWERFER
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

ALAN TOTH: My brother has written an article arguing for the Christian obligation to be stewards of the environment and I have no argument with that. And I agree that their is a strong element of self-indulget, self-interest in resistance to the Global Warming argument.

But I do not subscribe to the axiom [i]Olympia locuta est, causa finita est.[/i] She may have spoken, but the cause/case is not resolved on her authority. I have no reason to believe that her store of climatological knowledge is any greater than mine---in which case it is negligible. The minority of scientists who dissent have far greater authority than our senior senator and it is not for her to resolve the issue by counting scientific noses.

Capitalism, with its sordid hunger for profit, has repeatedly proven its superiority to governmental interventions when it comes to solving economic problems. If Sen. Snowe wants to be the savior of Mother Earth, let her take the flack for imposing a heavy surtax on CO2 producing energy---that would mobilize the profit motive. Instead she advocate the usual methods of governmental interventions, subsidies, minor fiddlings with the tax code, etc. All of which shift the onus onto to industry for any price increases.

Vikingstar
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Alan:
Before you condemn the Industrial Revolution and capitalism in totality, you may want to consider the explosion in medicines, agriculture, and general human well-being that has occured as well. Without the industrial revolution, virtually all people everywhere would be subject to short brutal lives of grinding work and incredible poverty, along with no hope of a better life for themselves and their children.

"All truth is God's truth"...

alantoth
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Thesis, antithesis, synthesis

Here's the grid behind my thinking:

There is an antithesis at work in life and it is not between rich and poor. It is the influence of Satan (antithesis) pitting itself against the Kingdom rule of God in Jesus Christ (thesis). The battle going on in the heavenlies plays itself out in the hearts of men and women and gets structured into daily life. Christians are called to identify where a (synthesis) has occured, the place where we have been seduced into something foreign to the radicality of Kingdom living and have synthesized Christianity with the surrounding culture's values. Once identified we are called to come away from systhesis and back into thesis. This is an elemental way of identifying our place and task in creation. Any evangelism that fails to embrace the implications of this for how we live in a culture is an evangelism that has, by default, identified itself with the surrounding culture.

Alan Toth
I am wondering what some of those who've weighed in on this topic think of Exon Mobile's offer of $10,000 to anyone who would come up with "science" that would refute global warming?

Mark T. Cenci >
Why not? Everyone must be paid for their work. The scientists accepting gov't grants and academic salaries are being paid. And the institutional bias is decidedly tilted toward the crisis conclusion that serves larger gov't.

Alan Toth

Mark, the problem I have with this is that it sounds very much like what often happens among public office holders’ parties. Public officials grab hold of something they want to do and then ask for help outside the party to justify a pet idea, policy or legislative initiative. The problem with this is that you can't hold external party sources accountable? Parties don’t see a need for internal think tanks because they already have monopoly power over our system of representation and can get, with money or favor, like Exon-Mobile, whatever back up thinking they need to give apparent legitimacy to their interests.
It is this crass, cynical manipulation of the system that wields such over-weaning influence in our culture to the point of subtly (sometimes not so subtly) seducing even the best of people to, often unwittingly, put power ahead of principle.
This troubles me because all it does, in the end, is short circuit the common good.

To the extent that there is an institutional bias in our culture it is toward the notion of absolute individual freedom. This characterizes the heartbeat of profit and, in what we call power politics, has both a left and right manifestation. Predictably the left criticizes the right for a weak stance with regard to the environment because it sees the freedom ideal being played out by corporate capitalism in ways that adversely affect the natural world. The right predictably criticizes the left for moral obtuseness regarding abortion, gay marriage and the like. Both want to maximize freedom for different ends. Political life reflects this dichotomy and its related concerns. It also reflects the shallow pragmatism that makes the end of power justify the most convenient means for getting and maintaining it. My problem with Exon-Mobile is not its right to make a profit but that like our political parties, it seeks whatever it can find, in this case anti-global warming scientists, to further its own ends. What all this represents, no matter what good has come from it, is a lie about life.

I am unconvinced that either small or big government is the answer to anything. Both leave unanswered the question as to what the role of government is in the first place. And that is the problem at the heart of liberal democracy. It cannot answer such a question because it is trapped in the originating ideal of absolute individual freedom, the very outlook on life that has brought us into the closed system of undulating left/right options and the mixed bag of technological progress, economic advancement and moral decline we now see. The sad state of a divided house among Christians and the unwillingness for many in positions of influence to open up debate about such things means that nothing is likely to change. The lie will continue to manifest until its consequences eat up our culture.

alantoth
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Vikkingstar

I appreciate your point. As you might surmise from my response to Mark I am not condeming the Industrial Revolution and Capitalism in total. God works with what is available in human responsiveness. What I am condemning is the wholesale accomodation of we Christians to its benefits without a corresponding discernment of the seductive features of its spirit and the way this has led to the compromising of our faith.

FLAMMENWERFER
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

ALANTOTH: Capitalism, as Adam Smith, well knew is not a moral system, but a way of controlling and directing acquisitiveness in productive ways by the Invisible Hand. Competition, on which it relies to regulate supply and demand and provide productive incentives, works in less productive ways when it is a question of competing commissars, pirates, gauleiters, gangsters, etc. It follows that it can only function productively in a culture which has some moral grounding.

alantoth
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Power maintenance vs. comprehensive principled vision

FLAMMENWERFER

You said, "If Sen. Snowe wants to be the savior of Mother Earth, let her take the flack for imposing a heavy surtax on CO2 producing energy---that would mobilize the profit motive. Instead she advocate the usual methods of governmental interventions, subsidies, minor fiddlings with the tax code, etc. All of which shift the onus onto to industry for any price increases."

The problem with the current system of representation is that it assumes an entire system of thought driven by the vision of inevitable progress and a concurring system of social institutions that support this. Individuals constitute the building block upon which this has been built. Our political system reflects this. Parties operate more like electioneering machines for free wheeling individuals then they do as carriers of principles around which common good public policy initiatives can be organized and articulated. If a system of representation were to exist that put principle before power and made it possible for people to be represented by persons who believed what they believed regardless of where they lived it would be able to challenge the lack of spine and visionary leadership increasingly apparent in play to the middle politics.. You will be hard pressed to find an individual who is willing to spend his/her political capital by telling you the truth about what is needed and seeking legislation to back this up.

Here's an example of what I mean.

At a local coffee shop about three years ago I stumbled onto Tom Allen holding forth at a Q & A meet your congressman session. So I asked him what he thought about a $1.00 tax on every gallon of gas because I heard this talked about as a way to discourage wanton disregard for the shortage of oil and as a way to encourage conservation and, more importantly, alternative energy development with the huge energy development fund the $1.00 would create. It was also a way of driving home to the public that without concentrated action we are facing a very uncertain future. Allen’s response was that this would never work because the public would not accept it. Then he added that by 2010 the situation would deteriorate enough that the public might be willing to accept such a measure. What this illustrated to me was that Allen was an individual who wanted to continue getting elected and that he was part of a system where political parties were weak as carriers of principled vision. So they just tried to do what they could to help elect lone ranger candidates after which they hoped to assemble a loose governing agenda that was in sync with White House priorities.

As everyone knows elected individuals in this system really are lone ranger representatives who may or may not support a president’s agenda depending on how it might play on their re-election chances. Of course, if Allen were a person of conviction it would not have mattered if people were willing to accept a $1.00 tax on gasoline. He could assemble a series of town hall meetings where he and others could explain why this was needed and then challenge people to mutual sacrifice for the good of all. I did not know much about Allen before that chance encounter but his response made clear that he was unwilling to spend his political capital to preserve the nation’s future. Snowe won’t either. And neither will anyone in a system that rewards power over principle.

Vikingstar
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

The very last thing we need to do is send the government (on any level) more tax money. President Bush, just yesterday, delivered a 2.9 TRILLION dollar budget to Congress...and the usual Suspects were already complaining about "budget cuts for the poor so the rich can have tax breaks". Meanwhile, just contemplate the astronomical waste to be found in goverment.

Also, Alan, I have a real problem with the concept of limiting individuals and the private sector in the way that you described to Allen. The cure for oil consumption will ultimately be found not in the government, but in the private sector, but not if we hand to them our rights as you suggest obliquely. And given what I've heard many times from Allen, I don't trust him in any way to make wise decisions about virtually anything; he is too infected with the belief that Government (meaning him) Knows Best. Same thing goes for Snowe et al, of course.

JIMV
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

[quote="GW Rudmin"]They're insane in the U.S. Senate.[/quote]

"No mans life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session" - Mark Twain 1866

"Suppose you were an idiot_And suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself" - Mark Twain

"There is no distinctly native criminal class save Congress" - Mark Twain

And finally

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators" - P.J. O'Rourke

alantoth
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Justice for the entire public realm

Vikingstar

Thanks for offering your views. Here is my response.

Yes, you can find waste, mismanagement and even corruption anywhere including in private industry. Lower taxes can be a goal but they do not constitute a principle of governance. The task of government is to do justice to the entire public realm so that every sector is freed up to fulfill its peculiar task. Some parts of the public realm may get over-developed carrying out their task at the expense of others: education at the expense of parental responsibility, economic development at the expense of the environment, etc. A just government would act to free up persons and sectors of human responsibility that are suppressed by other sectors' overweaning interests. Sometimes persons and their corresponding institutions of social responsibility need the intervention of government to break the power of unjust developments in the social order. Lower taxes might end up being part of a bigger vision of justice that deals with facets of an unjust or misshaped public realm but they are not a first principle.

The question of rights has to be conditioned by something larger than my individuality. Otherwise you may end up hijacking norms in the social order that are pre-designed to contribute to human flourishing. When you make your rights superior to pre-existing norms for every part of life the end result will ultimately be an undermining of the common good. When government contributes to the derailing of such normative behavior then it needs to be confronted with a more just public vision. Private industry certainly has a crucial place in the development of important facets of human infrastructure but it is not a law unto itself nor a savior geared to real human need. It too has to be subject to norms of stewardship that condition responsible action. Otherwise, like all human inclination, it seeks to do as it pleases and we know from personal experience in our own lives how easy it is to go against some of our better instincts and give in to our worst. We need accountability. Private industry, like government officials who act without norms meant to guide the task of governance, is just as subject as any other part of public life to the contamination of its task.

As for your “rights” you hand them over every time you get in your car and drive down the road. You are not free to go as fast or even as slow as you might wish, at least not without consequence. Why? Because there is something bigger than your rights at stake and it has to do with the common good.

A government that wants to do justice on something as crucial to national survival as energy and related infrastructure would at least convene a wide array of leaders from all facets of the social order, including members of the clergy, and seek to flesh out a holistic approach to human responsibility, one where personal freedom would have a better chance to be exercised in the context of responsible options.

If you want better leaders then you need to seek reforms in our system of representation that encourage holistic and principled vision. Otherwise you are going to be stuck with the likes of Allen, Snowe et al none of which will ever challenge you to reach for something higher than your so called rights. Just think of this, because of the human inclination to rebell against Godly limits, you have no rights and, in fact, have been bound over to death. In Christ you are free in principle and enabled to serve him to the extent that you are weaned from your worst inclinations so that you can choose to honor him in every part of life. The only right you have is the legitimate expectation that he will be faithful to his word for your good even if that means you are persecuted for exposing evil and doing what is right in his eyes.

Al Amoling
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For another take on this

[url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/02/bad_research_horrendou...

In trying to prove that the Bush administration is throttling research into global warming, the Union of Concerned Scientists rolled out some breathtakingly bad science.

The group unveiled a supposedly scientific survey of more than 1,600 federal climate scientists as evidence that the administration was engaged in "wide-ranging political interference in research related to global warming."

Al Amoling
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Gore says Bush administration paying scientists to dispute g

lobal warming.

[url=http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/02/gore-says-bush...

MADRID , SPAIN (CNN) -- Former Vice President Al Gore said in an interview on Tuesday the Bush administration is now paying scientists to dispute global warming since the administration can no longer argue against it.

[size=24]Hey Al Cry me a river.[/size]

alantoth
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If there is deform then we need reform

JIMV

I do not buy Mark Twain's cynical views of government. Government is a legitimate, God ordained facet of human experience. It has its own distinct task to perform and norms for its rightful functioning. The task of public goverance is a high one and anyone called to it needs to learn to think deeply, struggle intensely and work to promote justice to every part of the public order. If many have failed to so act and you don't like this then you need to think about what can be done to create a system of representation that encourages principled, holistic thinking as opposed to interest group brokering.

Roger Ek
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Greenhouse gasses are caused by gashouse greenies.

Climate change is caused by the sun. All the particulate matter emitted by industry since the industrial revolution was exceeded by one natural event, the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines.

Over 99% of so called greenhose gasses are simply water vapor. Much of the remainder is methane from rotting jungles and CO2 from natural sources. Man's negligible contribution to the total cannot possibly influence the earth.

Nobody disputes that climate changes. It always has and always will. Don't confuse nature with the environmental industry's effort to shut down life as we know it. [/code]

Lenny
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Governor Baldacci Tackles Global Warming
February 7, 2007
Governor's Office

AUGUSTA – Governor John E. Baldacci opened the Forum on Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI): Decisions for Maine Wednesday morning by discussing Maine’s efforts to address climate change.

“The Maine Department of Environmental Protection developed Maine’s Climate Action Plan, one of the first in the nation,” said Governor Baldacci. “The cap-and-trade program that came from the Action Plan is one of the most effective greenhouse gas reduction strategies both in terms of carbon reductions and cost-effectiveness.”

Governor Baldacci said that 10 states are now committed to participating in RGGI. The Governor has asked DEP Commissioner David Littell to ensure the environmental and economic benefits of the RGGI initiative are maximized in Maine.

“RGGI will reduce CO2 emissions from electrical generators by 10% from current levels by 2019,” said the Governor. “If we take growth between now and 2019 into account, this represents a 35% reduction over business as usual. It will reduce CO2 emissions by the most cost-effective means.”

Governor Baldacci delivered his remarks at the beginning of the forum, hosted by the USM Muskie School and the UM Margaret Chase Smith Center. The Department of Environmental Protection presented draft legislation and a panel discussion after Governor Baldacci’s remarks.

MikeL
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Re: If there is deform then we need reform

[quote="alantoth"]I do not buy Mark Twain's cynical views of government.[/quote]
How about Will Rogers?[list]There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you.[/list:u][list]This country has come to feel the same when Congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer.[/list:u][list]Our constitution protects aliens, drunks and U.S. Senators.[/list:u]

alantoth
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Part of the problem or part of the answer

Mike L

We all have fun dicing public office holders and often with good reason. This does not do away with the fact that public office is a legitimate calling. Nor does it, because an office of public trust is abused, mean government itself is an ill to be avoided. There is a difference between the structure of government or a public office and the direction in which these are taken. The direction in which a government is taken has a lot to do with the options available to it. The options, of course, have a lot to do with representative choice. If you don't like big tent parties and want parties that have clear principles then the current system of representation is your enemy not government or public office holders per se. The current system has strictures that, in effect, close down all options except two both of which want a big tent. Playing to the middle, not principled vision, is the result because that is what is seen as most likely to preserve one's ability to get elected. Getting elected trumphs all else. If you like the feeling of not being represented by people who actually believe what you believe then you will want to stick with the current system of representation. But then you will have to give up on your cycicism about government and public office holders because now you will be contributing to the problem you lament.

Vikingstar
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Alan:
The original princple of our government is based on the Constitution granting rights to individuals and the "sovereign states", and expressly limiting the powers of the federal govenment.
the progressive centralization of Federal power has been very harmful to the Founder's vision of government. your views seem to me uncomfortably close to the "nanny state" rather than enhancing individual rights. as the writers of the Constitution envisioned.
Allen, Snowe and the rest of the Congress, in my opinion, should not have the powers they have progreesively taken to themselves, with the people's tacit approval (or perhaps I should say lack of opposition). We have an ever-increasing dose of the dread disease "socialism" in our body politic; it is inheriently opposed and distructive to the concept of "individual rights", and under it one only has rights if one belongs to a given group, not as an individual. It will lead (as it always does, given enough time) to the lowering and cheaping of human life and quality of life.

attic owl
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

Vikingstar. you've, got it right.

Ken Lindell quoted Proudon on a different thread it seems to capture what government means.

I have not confidence in state government. Proudon wrote: "To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-ridden, regulated, penned up, indoctrinated, preached at, checked, appraised, seized, censured, commanded, by beings who have neither title, nor knowledge, nor virtue. To be governed is to have every operation, every transaction, every movement noted, registered, counted, rated, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, refused, authorized, endorsed, admonished, prevented, reformed, redressed, corrected.

But Proudon failed to mention TAXED.

The Distributist
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Global Warming Derangement Syndrome Explained

[quote="attic owl"]But Proudon failed to mention TAXED.[/quote]
I think that falls under appraised & seized...

alantoth
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Last seen: 9 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/13/2006 - 1:48pm
Individualism revisited

To Alan from Vikingstar:
The original princple of our government is based on the Constitution granting rights to individuals and the "sovereign states", and expressly limiting the powers of the federal govenment.

To Vikingstar:
Is the constitution or scripturally directed theorizing about government your point of departure? Please tell me where in the bible something besides God is seen as sovereign? Please tell me where the state is seen as independent from biblically informed norms regarding its functioning? Please tell me also where the individual is a thing unto himself with rights that are not conditioned by prior responsibilities. If you can’t do that then your argument is a weak one at best.

To Alan:
the progressive centralization of Federal power has been very harmful to the Founder's vision of government. your views seem to me uncomfortably close to the "nanny state" rather than enhancing individual rights. as the writers of the Constitution envisioned.

To Vikingstar:
While I agree that government should not be an institution that usurps my freedom to act responsibly I do not see my responsibility as merely a personal matter. I am a member of the Body of Christ which means my personhood is meant to be realized within the context of this world's system of values while working with fellow Christians to articulate and incarnate values not of this world. This is one of the ways the Kingdom rule of Jesus Christ gets raised up and his Lordship pointed to.

You seem to embrace the notion that limited government is all that is needed. Have you thought about what government is supposed to do with the limited power it has? The founders, who were not gods, did not think much about that either because though many of them were Christians their views of government’s task were mostly indistinguishable from those of classic liberalism which saw the individual as prior to all social reality, i.e. the new sovereign who created a new social reality. In my bible God, not the state nor the individual, is still sovereign and every person housed in every part of social reality is still called to obey his word for how he wants things done. Since you worship the same God I do and understand yourself as accountable first of all to Him please identify in what way I have endorsed what you refer to as the nanny state.

To Alan
Allen, Snowe and the rest of the Congress, in my opinion, should not have the powers they have progreesively taken to themselves, with the people's tacit approval (or perhaps I should say lack of opposition). We have an ever-increasing dose of the dread disease "socialism" in our body politic; it is inheriently opposed and distructive to the concept of "individual rights", and under it one only has rights if one belongs to a given group, not as an individual. It will lead (as it always does, given enough time) to the lowering and cheaping of human life and quality of life.

To Vikingstar:

The individualism and individual rights you seem to embrace almost as if they were a biblical norm deserve closer scrutiny. You are aware, are you not, that abortion has its roots in individualism. The spirit of this goes back to John Locke the English political and social theorist many of the founders looked to for guidance. Locke was the principal author of radical individualism. He thinking is one of the prime sources for what intellectual historians identify as classic liberal individualism. This is the stuff Libertarians want to harken back to. In his Second Treatise on Property he laid out the kernel of individualism when he said, “Every man has a property in his own person.” Now, mind you, this is contrary to scripture which tells us our body is not our own that we have been bought for a price. My point is ideas have legs.

Do you see any connection between Locke’s statement and the abortion “RIGHTS” claim that “its my body and I have a right to determine what happens to it.” If you are going to make a big deal out of individual rights then you are going to have to accept abortion because abortion stands squarely in the same stream you want to stand in. If you are unwilling to do that then you are going to have to find another more biblical argument for understanding what is foundational to the task of government. Its either that or accept the inconsistent and indefensible nature of a double standard.

Stewardship of scarce natural resources and the use of governmental power to encourage good and discourage evil are hardly socialistic or negating of personal initiative and responsibility. If they are then one has to ask what God was thinking when he laid these out as guides to further reflection. Socialism (collectivism) is merely the flip side of radical (individualism). They are actually bed partners issuing from the same seed of faith in a rational (not religiously informed) science and technology, human perfectibility and the inevitability of progress.

I still want to know where in scripture there is any reference to the word “individual.” I have always thought of myself as a person who is a member of the vine and as one who is called by Christ, with fellow Christians, to be one as he and the father are one. This, as you well know, was Jesus’ admonition to all believers prior to his crucifixion. He wanted us to be in unity. Why? So that the world would know that Jesus was sent by and embodies God and his rule. So I am utterly perplexed by what comes off as a near rabid insistence on the primacy of the individual. That does not come from scripture. It comes from somewhere else, a place whose fruits are recognized in abortion but ignored elsewhere. It is hard for me to believe God will judge abortion but give a pass to its underlying spirit in other parts of life in our culture.

If I have improperly understood your position please accept my apologies. I have responded frankly as I have analyzed your thinking and trust you will do the same for me.

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