He can't give a strait answer because if it was Clinton doing it he would be all for it but because Bush is president he has to oppose it.Simple as that but he won't admit it.Playing politics with American lives,how discusting.
Where do you stand, Charlien, them or us?
I'll repeat the question, shortened: Them or us. Which side are you on, Charlien?
I encourage you to give it another try.Them? or
each of you: Them or Us. Time to choose sides.No quibbling. A one word answer will suffice.[i]John, what's with the Grand Inquisitor attitude, anyway?[/i]
[url=http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_video/spanish.avi]Click for more[/url]
Oh, Tom! My face hurts! We needed that!What my brother is attempting to do is get a straight answer from crooked thinkers. Although evidently not intended that way, his recent comic post about being attacked by a mugger is highly illustrative of the depths to which political correctness and a rigid political agenda have driven their proponents. And yes, there's blame to go around on all sides with various issues. But this issue is not one where we really can [i]nuance[/i] the response - it is not a subtlety.The point about Klinton and acceptance of US military action under his "command" is relevant and very telling.I do not condemn all of those who think differently; neither does "John". Tom implies so with his otherwise hilarious link (I love the robes). In reality, the most close minded among us are those who cannot see past the "nuanced", pseudo intellectual, highly evolved, snobby airs they wear on their chests to actually call a thing what it is: right, or wrong. I think all clear thinkers can agree: savagery and barbarianism are wrong.It's easy to say...try it: w-w-w-wwroooooooong.So, if a military response in not correct when we suffer more [i]non military[/i] casualties on 09/11/01 than the [i]military casualties[/i] in Pearl Harbor on 12/07/41, what is the appropriate response? Send aid? Pull back within our borders and hope no one ever hurts us? Adopt as US law all of the tenets in the Koran and install an Ayatollah in the White House?Forgive my language, but on this day of remembrance, would you who think you are so highly evolved and able to see in shades and contrasts not available to us low brow, uneducated, close minded, gullible Christians please [i]answer the damn question[/i]!Us or Them?
Don't get me wrong, I'm with us. But I know that intelligent people like charlien;
1)are blessed or cursed with the ability and the need to see and understand all the sides and nuances of policy and conflict
2)keep our leaders honest by questioning their actions, and won't follow blindly
3)won't answer a direct question to the satisfaction of someone who puts what they consider unacceptable parameters on said question
4)think I'll go grill some burgers! :eek:
This is [b]not[/b] aimed at you, Tom.Y'know, this whole [b]WWIV[/b] thing ([b]WWIII[/b] was the Cold War) ain't something that should take a lot of brain power to figure out. Of course, we must remember the appeasers of WW's II and III.I hope this isn't one of those "look down your nose at those who disagreeâ€ deals. I've spent my entire life listening to people rationalize their stupidity. Intellectualizing an inability to think clearly (or a captivating personal addiction) doesn't make anyone smarter, despite education. Looking down your nose and questioning everything that floats across your path is not proof of your possession of some rare insight that is beyond other men. Interestingly, it is the "thinkers" who are such slaves to their precious intellect. [b]Man's intellect.[/b] Same intellect that decided it was O.K. to exterminate Jews, create Communism, state emphatically (without a shred of proof) that we all sprung forth from some random Cosmic Cuisinart, kill full term babies in the name of choice, have sex with children, mercilessly beat women and mutilate them, fly airplanes into buildings, and shoot children in the back in Russia.I'm sure you've all heard the saying that some ideas are so stupid, only an intellectual would believe them. [b]My grandfather called them educated idiots.[/b] I personally resent any inference that the use of violence against terrorists is somehow a characteristic of thoughtless, ignorant persons who are unable to maintain a proper worldview, and follow blindly those who lead them. I also personally resent the implication that any anti social human bacteria deserve a shred of consideration as part of the family of mankind. This, before you [i]higher order thinkers[/i] knock over the lamp stand in the rush to your keyboard to smugly point out the apparent contradiction with my prior statements of faith, is what a [i]genuine[/i] value of human life [b]demands[/b].Having any other "opinion" than wiping from the world savages who want to harm others is about as ridiculous as anything I have ever heard. What kind of idiot would even consider that? Yet we have protests outside of prisons every day.If I am therefore a small thinker or unable to grasp your lofty, tiresome questioning of everything, then kindly sit and sip your bottled water while the Neanderthals keep you safe. So you can continue your narcissistic delusion.How'd those burgers turn out, Tom? We just finished sirloin, Bell Farms' corn, and apple pie. Oooof.
Tom O: Charlien can defend him/herself, me thinks. Didn't go to your link, as couldn't see the need to further being made fun of. Dangle that participle! It's a legitimate question. The parameters are easy. Them. Us. or, as Knucklehead put it (Don't ya just love to read what he writes? I know I do, every time.) Us or Them. Truly it was a creative way to rearrange the paradigm, don't you agree?Life is less gray and vague as some would prefer to think. Nuances are often very unnecessaryk and only contribute to the fog some people apparently prefer to dwell within. Not me. And I especially don't like fog when I'm driving. And in all senses of the word, I'm a driver.Folks - muslim extremists - are trying to kill us. I say it is wrong, pure and simple. Thus, I am against Them and for Us. I think we should kill everyone of them trying to kill us. If they don't cease and desist in the very near future, then I support taking actions similar to the Israelis: destroy their homes, destroy everything about their lives - make it so expensive to those who are trying to kill us, in very personal terms, that they and their supporters and those who harbor them are devastated - and if it comes to it, wipe them off of the face of the earth. It is a very Old Testament view, but sometimes that is what needs to be done.While we are engaged in a war unlike any other in modern history, it is not a war unlike others in the history of man. I also believe there is only one true God, and I know Him, through his son, Jesus, personally. It is my desire that everyone does, also. He commands me to love and serve others even more than I love and serve myself. Thus, I try to do that, and pray for those who are trying to kill us. I pray every day that they become confused and that they are unable to complete their plans. And I pray they will find and accept Jesus Christ as their savior. As that happens, we gain more brothers and fewer enemies. Jesus preaches love. Muslim extremists embrace hate. I want them to live as brothers in Christ. At the least, I want them to live in peace with others. And at the worst, I want them to just plain ole go away and die if they keep turning their back on God, on civilization, on living in harmony with others. As a Christian, I can live with those who believe differently than me. We can coexist peacefully as neighbors. And I can pray for them. But I cannot live peacefully with those who are trying to kill me. They must be stopped and not allowed to succeed. In that case, I claim my right to self defense, and will do my best to make sure they either repent and change their ways or die. Their choice. To do otherwise is to invite death for me and those I love. And while I welcome shedding this earthly form and heading into heaven to spend eternity worshipping and praising our Lord, I perceive I still have a lot to do here, and will continue to do what must be done until He decides my time has come to join Him. And that's fine with me.
John 3:16, your original post to this thread was:"Our nation and our military and civilians are in a "them or us" scenario. Where do you stand, Charlien, them or us? "If you mean by "Them", Osama bin Laden, of course I oppose him and what he's done. If you mean those opposing our immoral and illegal occupation of another sovereign nation(Iraq)..., well.If another country invaded the US of A, I'd be doing my damnest to make it as difficult as possible for the bastards to remain. Wouldn't you John?charlie
John- Charlien has clearly answered your question several times.That answer is "Not Us".
Do you read what I post here, Sandy? Or does your jingoistic, bellicose attitude preclude rational thinking?charlie
"If you mean those opposing our immoral and illegal occupation of another sovereign nation(Iraq)..., well."Your answer is crystal clear. "Not Us".
The question doesn't deserve an answer.
quote:As that happens, we gain more brothers and fewer enemies. Jesus preaches love. Muslim extremists embrace hate. I want them to live as brothers in Christ. At the least, I want them to live in peace with others. And at the worst, I want them to just plain ole go away and die if they keep turning their back on God, on civilization, on living in harmony with others.
What you didn't say explicitly but have said implicitly is that if you can't figure out what "thier" intentions are, you are perfectly willing to let your government wipe "them" out. A lot of Love there.
Replace "Jesus" with "Allah" and a few other minor edits and you have something that sounds like a fatwah.You see, the "us" vs "them" argument makes you sound just like "them".And so we see the real root of the problem is not Muslim fanaticism, it's fanatiscism period.I'm with "us". "We" are opposed to religious fanatics no matter what religion they espouse.
WE agree with Randy
I think John is at the crux of the matter he backed charlien into a corner and didnt let him wiggle his way out with more rhetoric. Charlien didnt answer the question so it speaks for itself.
Everything is either black or white. My world consists of various shades of many different colors.Somewhere over the rainbow? or does that song go... puff the magic dragon? :eek: :eek:
Randy, indie, charlien, etc.:If William Jefferson Boom Boom Good Times Klinton was micro managing this from the [i]Oral Office[/i], AS HE DID ON SEVERAL OCCAISIONS, liberals would be at least silent in their criticism, if not supporting it fully. We all KNOW the alphabet channels would have Hewey, Dewey, and Lewey out there fawning over his leadership and presidentialness. AS THEY DID ON SEVERAL OCCAISIONSElite Socialists abhor anything that unites and promotes individualism and family. These liars must produce discord, deceiving the discordant into believing a powerful [i]domestic[/i] foe exists and "Democratic" (Socialistic) government is the only answer.Pseudo intellectual rationalizing fog dwellers cannot discern real issues in their delusion. We are not talking about aspirin factories or getting beyond second base in the oval office, here.George W. Bush is a foghorn. Grates on ya, don't it? Instead of Little Billy, portraying the maturity and integrity of a junior high schooler caught in disobedience and trying to awkwardly argue his way out with silly pubescent rationalizations (Ah...did not have sex...with that woman...), we have a MAN who understands the responsibility of the office and does not treat it like a personal candy store.But we cannot see that, can we? These protests are silly, juvenile, Vietnam era whining with a pretense of concern for law and justice and safety of â€œour boysâ€ thinly disguising sinister power hungry agendas. And anyone who dares to argue with the lofty intellectual snootery is pronounced unable to clearly think, and a jingoist! The well worn theory that listening to your opponentâ€™s hurled epithets reveals their intent is being proved on this very thread. [b]Closed minded. Short sighted. Partisan.[/b] Thanks for the accurate picture.This tires me. Toss and chase and tooth your rubber squeaky toy insults amongst yourselves, slobbering and yipping and enjoying the unproductive but vaguely satisfying exercise.
quote: This tires me. Toss and chase and tooth your rubber squeaky toy insults amongst yourselves, slobbering and yipping and enjoying the unproductive but vaguely satisfying exercise.
"My God is better than your God". The ultimate school-boy bully taunt.Actually, W reminds me more of Foghorn Leghorn.....And I've never been to a protest in my life.Who brought up Bill Clinton?
For you gloom and doomers who view 1,000 dead in Iraq as a milestone, let me give you some frames of reference. A thousand dead was a bad month during Tet of 1968. It was a bad week during WWII. Over 60,000 died in one day at Gettysburg. This does not diminish the tragic loss of even one of those 1,000 we lost in Iraq. War is a scary dirty killing business. Do not try to diminish the sacrifice by our troops by using their courage to attack our Commander in Chief. Americans understand our need to take a stand. We don't see soldiers deserting and running off to Canada and Sweden today. The world changed on 9/11. People didn't get it the first time the WTC was attacked. It sunk in the second time. The Muslim world wants us dead. They want you dead. They want me dead. They want us all dead.[ 09-12-2004: Message edited by: Roger Ek ]
Erica, while your out of context quote may help you make the point you want it is deceptivee and misleading.What I actually said was:"You live in an either/or world John 3:16. Everything is either black or white. My world consists of various shades of many different colors."I don't feel backed into a corner either, and I have answered the question posed. Just haven't answered it within the "us" or "them" constraint John demands.It's like asking if I've quite beating my wife, and demanding only a yes or no answer.charlie
Roger:Your comments carry much more weight than mine. I sit in safety in part because you did not.Thank you, again
charlie - harsh message follows:What if THEY were beating your wife?
Randy:[b]Who brought up GOD?[/b]Something tugging at your heart?While we're on the subject...one belief is that the God of the Universe sacrificed His Son so [i]you[/i] could live better on this earth and in eternity. Another belief is that there is a god that demands YOU sacrifice YOUR SON so this god may live on and prosper by violently eliminating those who disagree. And by the wayâ€¦.Isn't eternal virginal sex with an entire harem a little too...[i]contrived[/i] in your mind? And - I ask the party of equality, justice, and human rights - is that [i]Heaven[/i] for the virgins, or are women [i]cattle[/i] in the afterlife, too?Is killing and killing and killing to gain Heaven where you spend eternity dipping your wick into 72 pieces of flesh more believable to you than selfless sacrifice to mankind by an all powerful Creator, and the admonition to treat each other with respect? Maybe it is more believable to your poster boy, the [i]progresssssive[/i] Wick Dipper J Pinocchio Klinton, huh? His relevance is his/his wife's continued control of the DemoKrat Socialist Party. And the glaring contrast in â€œprotestâ€ from the highly evolved elite thinkers of our time. Like actors and rich gigolos. Bouncy, bouncy, squeaky, squeakyâ€¦go get it, boy!
My God sacrificed His son for me. And you. And He clearly stated, "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased." And His son clearly stated, "I am the way, the truth and the life." He also stated that we can only get to his Father through Him, the Son. And the Bible clearly states, many will be called, but few will answer.My wife and I have answered the call. We pray daily that each of our children does the same - and we pray that others do so also.The difference in beliefs between being a Christian and being a muslim, as far as I can tell, is Christians are encouraged to love others, and to invite others to seek their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Christians also understand free will, and realize some will, but most won't. Christians do not FORCE unbelievers to believe, and give them the choice: beileve or die (as in die right now!). Christians can cheerfully coexist with unbelievers.Muslims, on the other hand, apparently believe it is their way or the highway, and those who choose the highway must die, right now. The muslims I hear and read about are consistently saying all nonbelievers are infidels, that infidels are lower than dogs in an all cat society, and that infidels must die, right now. Muslims do not appear to be pleased with the idea of peaceful coexistence with nonbelievers.My God had His son die for my sins. My God commands me to love and serve others. Their God requires their son kill my son and my daughters, and if their son dies in the process, he is a hero, a martyr, and is to be honored for serving their God. Their God is a god of death. Mine is the God of eternal life. Theirs says believe or we will kill you. Mine says I invite you to believe, to join us in praise and worship. If you say no to their God, death. If you say no to my God, you still retain your life on earth. And while you retain your life on earth, you will always have the opportunity to change your mind and repent, right up to your last breath, whenever that may be.
Before this happens in a more disrespectful and dishonorable manner, I will state that apparently it is widely understood that there exist peaceful Muslims. I have waited to hear from this peaceful Muslim segment, majority or minority, refraining from allowing myself or my family or others around me to adopt a "Kill 'em all" attutude. I'm kind of doing that now, "John" - although I am sure you inadvertantly omitted the qualifier for peaceful Muslims.However...I have been patiently waiting for a long time for American or French or German or Swiss Muslims, who live in free societies and can therefore speak their minds, to do so.Why are they silent?
Some or most of the peacefull Muslims probably have family that could be harmed in their home countries or maybe they live in fear of terrorists in this country kinda like how the Italians used to live in fear of the mob .No one dared to speakup.Just floating some theories. :confused:
I wondered about that after I wrote.So it would follow then that those peaceful yet fearful Muslims would [i]support[/i] US efforts to ferret out and kill the child killing human bacteria that has a stranglehold on the [i]religion of peace[/i].There you have it; we've solved the problem!Silent Muslims support US action but are afraid. We are helping them be free to practice their beliefs. Hooray for us!How simple! How utterly black and white! Who could argue with that?
quote: I have waited to hear from this peaceful Muslim segment, majority or minority, refraining from allowing myself or my family or others around me to adopt a "Kill 'em all" attutude. I'm kind of doing that now, "John" - although I am sure you inadvertantly omitted the qualifier for peaceful Muslims.
Let's see if I've got this straight. You want to kill all the Muslims...oops, you just clarified that you might make an exception for the "peaceful" ones. Being a good Christian we can all be certain you won't make a mistake.Why would anyone want to talk to you at all? Much less a Muslim. I'm a little confused that your ilk is so supportive of the Jews, since you obviously beleve they on the way to hell also.If this is the thought process that gets you to "heaven", I believe your going to find it uncomfortably hot.BTW, you seem to be more obsessed with Clinton's wick than he is.
For a Muslim to speak out against Islam would be to sever himself forever from his religion, his tradition and his family. You see he would be rejecting all of that. There are secular Muslims who care little about their religion. They go through the motions as some do in every religion. It's easiest for them to do nothing. If a Muslim believes his religion he simply wants you dead. The "peaceful Muslims" President Bush describes are the secular ethnic folks who have already drifted away from their religion and simply retain some of the trappings they grew up with. Eventually our President must acknowledge that fact. He delays at our peril.
Are you guys saying that Jesus is comming back in a Hummer H2?Mindstuff (emotions,theory,religion) doesn't trump reality when it comes to effective strategies.Do you really think religion is the reason why there are more 'insurgancy' fighters every day in Irac?