Overkill

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pmconusa
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Joined: 04/20/2000 - 12:01am
Overkill

On September 11, 2001 19 foreign citizens flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and several of them were on a plane that passengers forced to crash in Pennsylvania. Over 3000 people were killed and many more injured as a result of the physical damage. The World Trade Center Towers were a total loss as were the aircraft involved. The immediate action of the government was to shut the airspace of the United States which lasted several days before its insanity finally sank in and was stopped. The immediate cost in life and property can reasonably dimensioned but, the residual cost and the overkill actions taken thereafter are much harder but certainly estimable.

Let us assume that the World Trade Center Towers cost $1 billion each and that the aircraft cost $120 million each and the lives lost were insured for $500,000. The immediate direct cost is therefore about $4 billion. For argument’s sake let us assume the indirect costs were half that, making the total about $6 billion. The punishment for murder should be death but, this was not a deterrent for the perpetrators because they all died in the execution of their crime. The one’s who abetted and indeed convinced the 19 to commit their crime were beyond the reach of our law because they were outside the country. Even if they were, they would never have been able to compensate the loss.

Vigilantes in Washington were unsatisfied with this scenario so they decided to guard the front gate in the hopes of finding the needle in the next haystack and to go in hot pursuit of the real perpetrators who may number less than a few hundred. The result is a new cabinet department and thousands of employees and two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan the sum total of which has cost over $2 trillion and counting because the methodology selected is being perpetuated. The ancillary loss of over 3000 and rising American troops is immeasurable. The ridiculousness of this effort becomes apparent when you examine the alternative action that may in fact have prevented it in the first place.

When we recognize a foreign government we should include in our condition of recognition the stipulation that each of us is responsible for the acts of our citizens when in each other’s country. It would then behoove the country to take care not only for those who they let into their country, but who they let out. These people are all identified because they are required to carry passports issued by their country of origin. In the case of the 9-11 disaster, there were 15 or so who were Saudi Arabian nationals. Under the above conditions the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia would be liable for 15/19 of $6 billion or $4.7 billion in fines to pay for the direct and indirect damages. If they refused to pay for their breach of contract we could prohibit the entry of any Saudi Arabian national into the country or the prohibition of exports to Saudi Arabia or to impound their exports or imports or all of the foregoing. All of these actions are enforceable under international law. If such an agreement were in place it is entirely possible they would never have been allowed to leave their country and our state department, if doing their job, would never have issued them visas.

When you realize how easy it could have been to deter such an event as 9-11 it makes you wonder why we don’t employ it. The answer is simple, there are those who benefit from such catastrophes and they wield sufficient power to elect officials who would put such a system in place. Who are they? They are the trial lawyers, the government itself and the military industrial complex that feeds off government actions. Then there are those governments who do not wish to accept responsibility for their citizen’s actions because they get the benefits of our largess without taking on reciprocal obligations. A case in point is Obama’s payment of $50,000 each to the heirs of those randomly shot by a U. S. soldier in Afghanistan. Obama has no Constitutional authority to make such payments and the Congress has no Constitutional authority to appropriate the money to do so., even if Afghanistan were to reciprocate. Does it make you wonder why the targets weren’t the Capital Building and the White House?

When there are those who can convince others to give up their lives in the perpetration of a crime and escape detection or the consequences of their action you will certainly have those willing to take the risk. If you believe there will always be these people you can only take the action necessary to prevent them from doing it too often. For example, could we have prevented the Oklahoma City bombing, probably not, unless you put the entire country in a state of lockdown, which would be the action of our incompetent government and their parasite benefactors?

Roger Ek
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Joined: 11/18/2002 - 1:01am
"A case in point is Obama’s

"A case in point is Obama’s payment of $50,000 each to the heirs of those randomly shot by a U. S. soldier in Afghanistan. Obama has no Constitutional authority to make such payments and the Congress has no Constitutional authority to appropriate the money to do so.,"

In Vietnam when a noncombatant was killed we used to pay the family a stipend. This was seen as a benefit to the family by the Vietnamese. In Afghanistan it is seen by the Afghans as weakness.

taxfoe
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Joined: 03/22/2000 - 1:01am
"On September 11, 2001 19

"On September 11, 2001 19 foreign citizens flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and several of them were on a plane that passengers forced to crash in Pennsylvania . . "?

You're still buying into the conspiracy theory? I concur with the gist of your post but I don't get why you'd predicate it on the myths of 9/11.

pmconusa
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Joined: 04/20/2000 - 12:01am
Taxfoe: What conspiracy

Taxfoe: What conspiracy theory do you think I believe in? I didn't say anything about a theory, all I stated are facts. 19 persons combined to wreck havoc in the U.S. on 9/11. This was a conspiracy, not a theory. Some group organized all of this and the government overreacted in spades when in my opinion the whole affair could have been avoided or prevented for a fraction of the cost in monetary terms and certainly in lives.

Stephen Carmichael
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Joined: 06/19/2008 - 8:05pm
Humankind was naturally

Humankind was naturally designed to travel and no government should prohibit free travel. The entire response to 911 was the most overbearing control grab this Republic has been allowed to pull off. Japanese internment camps were equally as Constitutionaly void.

The CIA was winning the war in Afghanistan until the bulky Army Command took over with no clue on how to fight terrorists.

pmconusa
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Joined: 04/20/2000 - 12:01am
Stephen, in my scenario there

Stephen, in my scenario there would be no need for the CIA since the foreign government is encouraged to root out their own terrorists if they want any of the benefits of trade or travel with the United States. What we are doing in the inistance you cite and the sending of our troops to aid other countries to accomplish their own objectives, be they the preservation or installation of democratic governments is a mercenary action where we not only supply the mercenaries but we pay them as well. It is a taxpayer expense that need not be made.

Spider
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Joined: 06/16/2011 - 3:13pm
"On September 11, 2001 19

"On September 11, 2001 19 foreign citizens flew planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and several of them were on a plane that passengers forced to crash in Pennsylvania."

We will continue to disagree with the conclusion stated above, and everytime I see it I will express my disagreement.

1. You believe an unqualified pilot could take the controls of a Boeing 757 and perform the maneuver below. I do not believe it.
Source: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html

"So, lets go on what we have. The last known altitude reported for AA77 was 7000 feet. And travelled 33 miles in 5 minutes. Thats 6.6 miles per minute or 396 knots (Update: FDR data shows 325 knots average airspeed. 9/11 Commission Report is inaccurate). Then the aircraft began a 330 degree spiraling dive, leveling at 2200 feet to accelerate to the Pentagon while continuing descent. He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, the final impact speed was 530 mph. Update: FDR is now available and the 9/11 report is inaccurate in terms of impact speed.

So lets take an avg speed throughout the dive of 430 knots (7 miles/min). We know a standard rate turn is 2 mins for 360 degrees. So lets say he completed the turn in just under 2 minutes. Since we dont know bank angles or speed. That means he was descending at better than 2500 fpm dropping almost 5000 feet only gaining 30 knots. No problem for guys like you and me, but for Hani? We'll get to him later...

Once this maneuver was completed, without going into a graveyard spiral, he started to pull out of the descent at 2200 feet and accelerated only 30 knots more at full power to 460 knots in a descent from 2200 feet to the pentagon in about a minute (Whats Vmo at sea level for a 757? Flap speed? Since it looks like he may have found the flap handle only accelerating 60 knots from 7000 feet, the from 2200 feet at full power). AA77 crossed the highways, knocking down light poles, entered ground effect, didnt touch the lawn and got a 44 foot high target (Tail height of 757) into a 77 foot target completely, without overshooting or bouncing off the lawn, or spreading any wreckage at 460 knots. With a 33 foot margin for error. Wow, impressive. Takes a real steady hand to pull that off. I know it would take me a few tries to get it so precise, especially entering ground effect at those speeds. Any slight movement will put you off 50 feet very quickly. Im sure we all would agree."

2. have a look at this source: http://www.kolumbus.fi/sy-k/pentagon/asce_en.htm#2.3

taxfoe
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Joined: 03/22/2000 - 1:01am
What Spider said. He likes

What Spider said. He likes the pilot's point of view, apparently. For the record, not long after it happened, I posted to these pages that, whatever it was that hit the Pentagon or crashed into the field in PA, they didn't have wings, tails or (external) engines. For my forensic perspective, I'm a little partial to the architects and engineers point of view.

My point was that, in every case where a professional forensic analysis has been performed, it is the 911 Commission's report that has been proven to be the real conspiracy theory, thus the role of the 17 + 2 accidental tourists has been substantially diminished. The Saudis, et al, are off the hook, reparations wise.

I do subscribe to one wholly unfounded theory of my own: Mercifully, for the sake of the innocent, all on board all 4 planes got the "Payne Stewart" treatment enroute to their remotely controlled demise.

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
I'd think such information

I'd think such information would HUGELY help the democratic party win the election. The US Government consisted of an R president and 2 houses of congress R at the time. The D's would probably pay for such information. So would the families of the dead NY firefighters, etc.

Mark12345
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Joined: 02/18/2012 - 12:01pm
Tax foe and Spider, how dare

Tax foe and Spider, how dare you question your government! Further, how dare you suggest anything other that what you are supposed to suggest. Which is a) all conspiracy theories are for tin foil hattie wearing loonie-bins. EXCEPT for b) when loving mother government puts forth a zany conspiracy theory we must believe it, we must not question it, and we must accuse all that question said zany conspiracy theory as "anti American" and people who "want the terrorists to win".

Jefferson would be so proud of how far we've come!

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
I'm just sayin -- the D

I'm just sayin -- the D party, Soros, etc, would all benefit a great deal from proof that an R administration was behind 9-11. Many of these folks have had no hesitation about criticizing "the government". Go for it, guys. They have millions, jets, security and media behind them.

The FDNY has more $$ and members than some small countries have in their military. You might interest them in your conclusions. After all, they know nothing about the science behind your revelations. I'm sure they'd welcome this information. Especially the "red flake thermite" stuff. After all, most fire marshalls have never heard of thermite.

Vikingstar
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Joined: 01/04/2003 - 1:01am
You miss the point,

You miss the point, John--everybody's in on the Conspiracy. Bush, Cheney, Halliburton, the Democrats, the military, the FAA, the Coast Guard, the Boy Scouts of America--they're all in on it.

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
Us too, apparently. Hmm. I

Us too, apparently. Hmm. I had no idea I was such a tool. Oh well, back to the thermite factory! Allah u akhbar!

taxfoe
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Joined: 03/22/2000 - 1:01am
I never said anything about

I never said anything about the Boy Scouts . . what have you got?

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
Fire building, and this:

Fire building, and this:

pmconusa
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Joined: 04/20/2000 - 12:01am
There is no doubt that our

There is no doubt that our government lies, distorts or otherwise stretches the truth. If 10 % of the people want to believe 9/11 was a government conspiracy, 10% that it was the result of aliens from outer space and 80% feel they know the real truth, 100% of us have been sending people to govern us who could not have be more incompetent in their response and acts of prevention. That was the point of my piece.

FLAMMENWERFER
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Joined: 03/27/2005 - 1:01am
A government that could

A government that could devise an intricate conspiracy involving tens of thousands of people and somehow persuade them to keep silent in the United States of Blabber actually shows an astonishing degree of competence. I find these conspiracy scenarios oddly comforting.

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
Well said, Agent 457.

Well said, Agent 457.

Vikingstar
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Joined: 01/04/2003 - 1:01am
"I never said anything about

"I never said anything about the Boy Scouts . . what have you got?"

Two words: "Be prepared"...just sayin'...

Economike
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Joined: 11/28/2006 - 9:09am
A government that could

A government that could devise an intricate conspiracy involving tens of thousands of people and somehow persuade them to keep silent in the United States of Blabber actually shows an astonishing degree of competence.

Aha! I happen to know that Dick Cheney organized 9/11. A guy doing my neighbor's roof told me. He works for the CIA so he ought to know.

KennyRoberts
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Joined: 01/18/2005 - 1:01am
Look, I only know what media

Look, I only know what media feeds me. Who actually did what or who actually knew what, I have no way of knowing.
My intuition tells me that when competing news sources have opposite but compelling versions of the "truth" that someone
is lying. If I knew who was lying I would still be powerless to do a darned thing about it, so whether or not Lee Harvey McVeigh was an ATF
agent or whatever or Lt. Col Bo Gritz actually helped create the Taliban, or whatever, I can't do a thing to stop it. NO ONE is accountable for fast and furious or flooding the US with illegal gang member armed to the teeth, or the distribution of narcotics world wide, come on, its what Satan does, and according to the Muslims, we are the great one at it.

All that I ask is that if I am expected to be a good little Nazi ostrich, don't repeal the sodomy laws with the same swipe of the pen.

See ya in the FEMA camps!

Yeah, I'm laughing...so hard that I'm crying.

Spider
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Joined: 06/16/2011 - 3:13pm
pmconusa. "There is no doubt

pmconusa.
"There is no doubt that our government lies, distorts or otherwise stretches the truth."
Your point is made, we concur.
Moreover,
1. Those on AMG that believe there was a gulf of Tonkin incident, ie a torpedo attack on a US military craft (that did not strike), raise your right hand. Remember, our government leader, Lyndon Baines Johnson, liberal democratic President of the USA, took us to war on that one and brought back some 50,000 body bags with the remains of our young men.

2. We americans are somehow learning impaired when it comes to the issue of whether or not our government will concoct public information that causes us to go to war and kill other humans. pmconusa reminds us of that. Point made.

Economike
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Joined: 11/28/2006 - 9:09am
2. We americans are somehow

2. We americans are somehow learning impaired when it comes to the issue of whether or not our government will concoct public information that causes us to go to war and kill other humans. pmconusa reminds us of that. Point made.

But, Spider, you're not among the "We" in "We americans" are you?

pmconusa
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Joined: 04/20/2000 - 12:01am
In Spiders defense he is

In Spiders defense he is among a minority who want a complete change in our Town Councils, our statehouses and in Washington but have lost the means, save revolution, to obtain it. When it comes to elections there is something to be said about the lesser of two evils. Elections are a fraud perpetrated on the people. Like William Buckley I'd rather have a random saample from the phone book to make the rules.

thejohnchapman
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Joined: 03/21/2000 - 1:01am
Like William Buckley I'd

Like William Buckley I'd rather have a random saample from the phone book to make the rules.

It is why we ought to be able to vote for a METHOD of selection at each election, not just a person.

Spider
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Joined: 06/16/2011 - 3:13pm
Mr. pmconusa. You have me

Mr. pmconusa.
You have me about rightly figured out.
In your 5th paragraph you ask a question....."The answer is simple, there are those who benefit from such catastrophes and they wield sufficient power to elect officials who would put such a system in place. Who are they?"
I have the same question. After 200 years or so, our intelligentia and statesmen are no longer able or willing to run for elected office to serve we the people. Who are the people that are deciding the direction of this country....who are this "they" of which you speak? I will argue that a shadow government exists that has ways of de-selecting candidates before they even get started. "They" have already figured out how to control and run the revolution....false flag national catastrophy....install marshall law.... disarm the public....let the ensuing class warfare sort out the weak from the strong....impose UN agenda 21. Start over with New World Order. In an obscene way it all makes logical sense....I wish I believed otherwise.

Economike
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Joined: 11/28/2006 - 9:09am
.I wish I believed

.I wish I believed otherwise.

Yes, it must be quite a burden to penetrate the wall of evil secrets and official lies, and to know what others don't.

Spider
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Joined: 06/16/2011 - 3:13pm
Well to address the comment:

Well to address the comment: But, Spider, you're not among the "We" in "We americans" are you?

I used to be among the we, but Al Gore invented the internet allowing me to readily access huge sources of information rapidly and I went 'anti-war' because there was credible evidence that I had been believing information that was not only false....but was presented with the intent of misleading citizen me. Stuff like....no gulf of Tonkin, the battleship Maine was recovered and the explosion was from the inside out...not outside in like from the "mine"....Lusitania was in fact loaded with munitions....stuff like that. I am sensitive, really I am, and the thought of those mothers that lost (and continue to lose) their sons or watch them come home maimed....all becauses of what?
Deception. Wish I had become enlightened decades ago instead of just enjoying the largesse in the richest country in the world.
Turns out there are a bunch of people out there that have like thoughts.

Economike
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Joined: 11/28/2006 - 9:09am
Thanks, Spider. Not only

Thanks, Spider. Not only are you not one of "We americans [who] are somehow learning impaired when it comes to the issue of whether or not our government will concoct public information that causes us to go to war and kill other humans." you're also insusceptible to irony.

pmconusa
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Joined: 04/20/2000 - 12:01am
It takes but a few but they

It takes but a few but they must have the money to corrupt. They are the George Soros' and the dreaded Miltary Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned about.

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