Police shooting innocent civilians

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Melvin Udall
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And we all appreciate your

And we all appreciate your reporting on both sides of the coin.

Tom C
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As you note, I started a

As you note, I started a police "good shooting thread," (which didn't garner a lot of interest, and instead apparently a lot of hostility.)

I also have a post or two to this thread that point out incidents where police were exonerated from accusations of malfeasance when the video of the incident was reviewed.

Tom C
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Detail about an earlier story

Detail about an earlier story:

“My dad exited the bathroom, went around the corner, and I immediately heard multiple shots, which I thought was my dad engaging these other people in the house,” Hayashi said. “There was a pause, and then I hear people start screaming, ‘Police!’ and I hear people enter the house.

BANG BANG BANG. "Police! Drop the weapon!"

Stepson of man killed by Aurora police recounts shooting: 'He lived a hero; he died a hero'

As described previously, when a citizen is shot by police, the policy is to let them bleed out:

“And as I turned the corner, my dad is face down … and he’s handcuffed. And I reached down and – I don’t remember if I touched his shoulder or his face – but he looked at me and I got pushed off by an officer out the door,” Hayashi said.

“It’s just disgust and shame. Sunday morning, had you asked my son what he thought about police officers, he would have told you they are the baddest dudes ever,” Hayashi said, noting that the boy had been at a police camp a week earlier. “Now all he can think about is police shot his grandfather. And he saw his grandfather handcuffed and he can’t understand why they wouldn’t help him. He’s just traumatized.”

Tom C
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Pinales and another neighbor

Pinales and another neighbor said they didn't hear any gunshots from the second floor where the man had lived. The first shots they heard, both women said, sounded as if they came from the porch where the man's body lay.

ACLU pushes for swifter disclosure about fatal St. Paul police shooting

Very strange - police get calls of gunfire, and rush in blasting away. However, the only shots the neighbors heard were that of the police.

Tom C
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There was AN INVESTIGATION.

There was AN INVESTIGATION. We Waited For It.

It CLEARED THE OFFICERS.

CASE CLOSED!

Ala. LEO charged with murder in OIS after being cleared by PD

... But wait - there's more!

Tom C
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This was an unfortunate event

This was an unfortunate event all around:

In Rare Verdict, Former Texas Police Officer Convicted Of Murder In Fatal Shooting Of Unarmed Black Teen Jordan Edwards

It relates to the cr@ppy training that many officers get - the tired "I thought he was going to run me (or my partner) over," excuse that used to be an automatic Get Out Of Jail Free card for cops blasting away, is now being looked at more closely.

Tom C
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Dallas police say one of

Dallas police say one of their officers was going home after her shift when she walked into the wrong apartment and shot the man inside.

Dallas police officer fatally shoots man after entering wrong apartment

I think we'll get some more facts on this, but no statement from the officer yet, who is probably in a "cooling off period" before required to make a statement.

I wonder if we'll hear "Made a furtive move" or "didn't follow police instructions" and of course "feared for my life."

I'm sure the sleepy citizen feared for his life as well.

The difference between his fear and the officer's fear was that his fear was legitimate.

The officer was not injured in the incident.

UPDATE:

Victim was a solid guy. Terrible waste of an exceptional man:

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/botham-shem-jean/

Al Amoling
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IMHO that officer deserves

IMHO that officer deserves more than a manslaughter charge.

Tom C
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You know, in the last few

You know, in the last few years, the handling of these situations has changed quite a bit.

Just a few years ago the blue wall of silence would come up after these events, and officer's statements were taken at face value - usually including magic words, "reached for his waistband" " didn't follow police instructions" followed by a full-on assault of the character of the victim.

And, of course, there was the "investigation" we were asked to wait for... which invariably cleared the officers.

It was so predictable it was absurd.

Now, with the regular availability of video of these incidents, we've seen many cases where the officer lied about the events as they unfolded, and so now we're not so quick to accept those descriptions at face value.

While the system still heavily favors the officers, the public is able to look at the process with the scepticism it deserves.

(This honest scepticism is different than the Black Lives Matter scam that insists that gunning down criminals while those criminals are committing violent acts is objectionable, or that the assaination of police officers is a legitimate answer.)

This will, and is, leading to good change.

anonymous_coward
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I haven't heard the specifics

I haven't heard the specifics, but it certainly sounds like she was under the influence of something.

I mean how do you go to the wrong floor, can't open the door b/c the key doesn't fit, and then just start shooting??

Tom C
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Rough outline of what's

Rough outline of what's coming out, some not verified:

She put the key in the lock, but it wouldn't turn, so it was then probably opened from the inside, probably when the resident heard the rattling, or in response to banging, if she was calling for her roommate, or whoever.

So he likely opened the door, she saw a black man in what she thought was her apartment, and started blasting away.

Not known if she was under the influence.

Was involved in a prior shooting last year, the cops were rousting someone who was near someone they thought there was a warrant out for, he resisted being searched, she pulled her taser and the subject took it away from her, and so she shot him in the gut. Subject survived.

Cops in Dallas might be jumpy:

In 2016 five officers were ambushed and killed in Dallas.

This smells:

The Texas Rangers postponed seeking a warrant for manslaughter charges, saying they needed more time to investigate information that had only recently emerged following their interview with the officer.

PICTURED: Female cop who shot dead neighbor after she 'mistakenly walked into his apartment thinking it was her own', as video emerges of officer crying as paramedics try to revive victim

As you recall, immediately after the incident, the police said they had not interviewed her. Only AFTER the "cooling off period" did she come up with statement that stalled the process.

Mike G
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She is devastated,' a Dallas

She is devastated,' a Dallas police officer close to Guyger told Dallas News. 'She is so, so sorry for this family.'

Who's been in my apartment rearranging the furniture and where is my big screen TV?

Sorry family, I had a bad day, the nine on the door flipped over to a six.

rumor has it that she knew him

Tom C
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Predicably, the statement the

Predicably, the statement that the officer came up with after the "cooling off period" included the claim that she shouted instructions that the victim did not follow.

That seems to be the reason the Texas Rangers were holding up the warrant.

However, that created fierce feelings between the Rangers and local authorities who were infuriated by that excuse. The family came up with witnesses who called into question the officer's claim of events, and those two factors pressured the state police to say there was probable cause for getting the warrant.

Now they throw the process to the grand jury, and, if an indictment comes from that, a trial.

Tom C
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Oh, for crying out loud:

Oh, for crying out loud:

One of the warrants became a public record Thursday afternoon when it was returned to the judge who signed it. It was shortly after Jean’s funeral had ended. It listed several items found in Jean's apartment, including a small amount of marijuana.

There have been several warrants signed by judges and executed in this case aside from the arrest warrant for Guyger and the search warrant signed September 7 that were returned to the court on Thursday. The others are still sealed and not accessible.

Lawyers "disgusted" by release of search warrant showing marijuana found in Botham Jean's apartment

Every sad little trick in the book.

Thomas Carter
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Weed? There ya go. Justified

Weed? There ya go. Justified homicide.

He shouldn't have resisted. When a cop comes into your home, just follow orders.

Tom C
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Or at least offered to share

Or at least offered to share the joint.

Mike G
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I'm still waiting to see if

I'm still waiting to see if she wanted a hit and a bit of nooky, a woman scorned. Who doesn't notice the furniture layout?

Tom C
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He shouldn't have resisted.

He shouldn't have resisted. When a cop comes into your home, just follow orders.

Here a situation with a different outcome:

Two police officers in Maryland were shot by a resident in his own home after they forced their way into the wrong apartment while trying to serve a search warrant, according to a new report. The episode on Wednesday night in suburban Washington was eerily reminiscent of another earlier this month when an off-duty officer in Texas shot and killed a resident in his own home because she said she confused it with her own apartment.

Maryland Cops Pulled An Amber Guyger, Only This Time The Resident Shot Police In Self Defense

Police chief defends the citizen:

“A law-abiding, hard-working citizen and his daughter were home at the point where we began to execute that search warrant,” Prince George’s (PG) County Police Chief Hank Stawinsky said Thursday.

I don't think we'd ever see a Police Chief defending the citizen in a case like this, that is - before these types of incidents had received wide public exposure. If it happened, it would be a very rare thing. More likely, the police would be falling all over themselves trying to besmirch the citizen in any way possible.

The fact is that looking at these incidents critically and bring them into public light, as well as the advent of videos of these incidents, has changed the police handling of these matters, and is likely changing police training, procedures and reactions in interactions with citizens. .

Tom C
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The family of a mentally ill

The family of a mentally ill man shot dead by Oregon police in a Carl's Jr. bathroom is planning to sue the department for wrongful death after seeing bodycam footage of the incident that was released on Wednesday.

Oregon cop who "accidentally" shoot a mentally ill man by confusing taser for a gun is CLEARED of all charges

Citizen is clearly suffering from mental illness, and is giving smug and snarky answers to police questions. They touch him, which he doesn't want, and then the police escalate the situation to aggressive behavior, and then shoot the citizen as he demands they leave him alone.

Crappy training, bad response, unnecessary shooting and killing.

anonymous_coward
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I always read your posts (or

I always read your posts (or at least try to), and they are depressing.

What is the solution for fixing this? How do you enforce better training/recruiting?

Ugenetoo
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My take:

My take:
1 Stop denigrating law enforcement at the presidential level. (Done)
2 Demilitarize the law enforcement organizations.
3 Most importantly, subject each and every LEO entrusted with the power of deadly force to an extreme vetting process that weeds out the gung ho / hair trigger types.

Some of these people act as if they have 6 quarts of adrenaline running in a 4 quart system and are not suited to be within 100 yards of an intense situation.

anonymous_coward
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@Ugenetoo:

@Ugenetoo:
"2 Demilitarize the law enforcement organizations."

What do you mean by this?

3 Most importantly, subject each and every LEO entrusted with the power of deadly force to an extreme vetting process that weeds out the gung ho / hair trigger types."

How do you do that? LEO operate at the state and local levels. Are you proposing a national vetting process?

Also, what do you think about body cams? Seems like it would be a good way to protect *both* sides. (I'll admit I haven't really thought about these issues very much.)

Ugenetoo
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In the last couple of decades

In the last couple of decades, the police have received a huge amount of equipment from the military that only serves to excite and draw the gung ho types into the profession.
Most of this equipment has no place in domestic law enforcement.

How do you do that? LEO operate at the state and local levels. Are you proposing a national vetting process?
There are tried and true psychological tests that will, in most instances, predict the behavior that leads to these shootings.
This testing, plus deep, rigorous background checks can and should be done for anyone OKed for the use of deadly force.

Body cams are a great tool to determine guilt.
They don't do much good at keeping people from mistakenly being killed.

Bruce Libby
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Speaking from professional

Speaking from professional experience as a trainer on Use of Force and having experienced one incident where
deadly force was being attempted on myself by an inmate I offer the following.

I tend to agree with the concern on adoption of military equipment and the appearance of it and the associated message it can send.
This is related to the SWAT team issue more than any other part of Law Enforcement. There is a entire body of philosophy / tactics associated with the units, it is supposed to show a superior force to convince the perp. to surrender w/out resistance. Fortunately this tends to work . If a perp. decides they want to die well
some equipment is for the officers safety. I suppose given the equipment is reused after being paid for is not a bad thing. SWAT teams are expensive items. That is why in Maine there is some regional teams shared between towns. Of course our State Police have the largest and are the preferred resource inmost of the cases. Since ,most incidents involve barricaded subjects with or without hostages it is brought with possible bad choices. Usually the wait them out tactic works.
Even that can be wrong. A classic man-years ago from Memphis Tennessee. was a classic( might have town wrong) where there was an officer hostage and rescue was delay d and his torture and death listened to but not acted on.
Unfortunately given what is going on in these situations the military like response is understandable , there is not much way to make them look good.

Use of Force: First it is necessary to fully understand the relevant law that governs it's use by a LEO and Corrections Officers, everybody is covered by it.
In Maine that would be Title 15 MRSA . Certainly it is the most difficult area of the jobs to train for and select officers to serve and perform he required duties,
Obviously pOlice are confronted with more circumstances usually and have the added responsibility of carrying a weapon. We here great cries about findings
on shootings by AG investigation. Simple.told to drop gun do so ! Point gun at cop and your shot justification is covered by law.

Contrary to some opinions police departments are finding it difficult to fill positions. The glory of the job has lost significant allure.
This requires the selection and testing of applicants for sure. Here in Maine standards for hiring and testing are done under the Criminal Justice Academy that all recruits attend. This a part of the department of Public safety. In reality there is not a fool proof test to see how one will perform when it comes to this responsibility. One of the casualties of affirmative action was the elimination of age requirements in hiring for certain jobs. In Maine it was 25 years which could be waived for a couple of years. There is little to replace some life experience and maturity. On a positive note most Gung Ho types do not last long and get weeded out more often than not.

"They don't do much good at keeping people from mistakenly being killed". The most important word there is mistakenly. Unfortunately it is difficult to
accept there are going to be mistakes, which are different from criminal acts .Yes , some are so egregious they become criminal acts.
A neighbor is a LEO is in favor of cameras ,as they protect the officer from false accusations. What they usually show is how much verbal abuse officers take in dealing with people on street.

I always remember the incident where the State Police Team surrounded a motel in Freeport to capture a murder suspect. The news coverage was great. seeing the officers positioned around the motel in their green camo. uniforms against the four foot high snowbanks !!

Ugenetoo
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Bruce

Bruce
That's why I said "mistakenly".
Nobody but the most hardened criminal animal gets up in the morning and says "I guess I'll kill somebody today".

I believe that a better vetting system in some of these localities would go a long way towards weeding out the gung ho types.

Of course the body cams are favored by the good cops.
The questionable ones probably would disagree with your neighbor.

Tom C
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There are a lot of components

There are a lot of components that need to come together to fix this, I think body cameras are great, also the response of leadership to these situations tends to be more sensitive now, whether that real or just PR, it's an improvement. Deescalation training is improved, however that issue is still often problematic.

I think that Maine has done a good job addressing this issue in recent years, I remarked some time ago that there have been fewer police shootings, and noted several difficult situations that could have had a fatal outcome over the old rules of engagement, were being resolved without use of deadly force. Bruce, I think pointed to new leadership on the state law enforcement that played a major role there.

Bruce Libby
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oiTom C

oiTom C
Yes, the hiring standards etc. are based in the Academy. Which has been under the State Police for many years. A real dynamic has been the preservation of the SP and their model of policing. While standardization of things has helped mainly to reduce training costs with hiring I am not sure their impact on the LE community is what it was or should be. Efforts to up grade the profession have been positive for the most part. Since the 70's a big push was put on hiring candidates with 4 year degrees. This has had some good effects. It created some good officers who were taught and mentored by senior officers.Nothing beats experience and time .
As recounted by a senior officer it doesn't matter much if they do not have the common sense to "not " give their mother a ticket for jaywalking !

Tom C
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Witnesses said a Midlothian

Witnesses said a Midlothian police officer responding to a shooting inside a south suburban bar shot and killed the wrong person early Sunday morning.

After security asked a group of drunken men to leave Manny’s Blue Room Bar around 4 a.m. Sunday, witnesses said someone came back with a gun and opened fire. Security returned fire, and according to witnesses, 26-year-old armed security guard Jemel Roberson apprehended one of the men involved outside.

“He had somebody on the ground with his knee in back, with his gun in his back like, ‘Don’t move,'” witness Adam Harris said.

Soon after, witnesses said, an officer responding to the scene fired at Roberson — killing him.

Awful: Cops shoot armed security guard who stopped bar shooting

Investigators have not said whether the officer gave Roberson any verbal commands.

However, witnesses say they did NOT hear any verbal commands.

My money here is on the witnesses.

“The other officers were out here. They know him. They seen him, and once the police actually shot him, everybody started screaming. The officers started screaming, ‘He’s one of us. He’s security.’”

What is interesting is that the security guard stopped the incident, and apprehended the suspect without loss of life. It was only when the cops got there, and the situation was under control, did someone get killed.

Ugenetoo
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Ten quarts of adrenaline

Ten quarts of adrenaline running in a five quart system.
Again.

Rebecca
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Anyone want to bet that the

Anyone want to bet that the cop gets charged or even disciplined? I'm not holding my breath.

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