The Return of TABOR

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Bob Stone
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The Return of TABOR

[url=http://www.sunjournal.com/story/218135-3/Columnist/The_TaxReformThatMust... "TABOR" Return and Rise from the Ashes of Maine Politics?[/url]

DalekMagi
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The Return of TABOR

The Taxpayer Bill of Rights will rise again. We must keep the message strong and steady, to counter the anti-TABOR propaganda which defeated it in 2006. The lies and subterfuge the big tax bullies push on us must be exterminated with the truth! The Truth will set Maine free from the overbearing burden of exorbitant taxation.

Town Manager
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The Return of TABOR

Here's a tip: Make it apply ONLY to state spending. It will pass by a landslide.

gopcollegestudent
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The Return of TABOR

Here's a tip Make it apply ONLY to state spending. It will pass by a landslide.

----

Failing to realize yet again that local towns are part of the problem...
roll roll roll

The more of you we have the worse off we are..

Bob Stone
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The Return of TABOR

Town Manager:

Here is the problem with your tip. The legislature would pass the unfunded mandate(s) down to the towns. We are not dealing with up-front people here. Thus, the requirement to have the spending limits on all levels of government. The Maine legislature will go to the ends of the earth to spend other people's money.

Naran
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The Return of TABOR

Bob - agreed. Unless and until we can put an absolute wall around the Legislatures' ability to pass their new spending onto anyone and everyone else, any new effort at a TABOR has got to include [u]all[/u] levels of governmental spending in Maine.

Peter
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The Return of TABOR

TABOR 2.0 should ban all unfunded mandates from Augusta and cap State Spending only at the CPI.
It also must include funding 55% of Education.

MarkSeger
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The Return of TABOR

Since the State started funding more and more towards the 55o/o it seems like southern Maine towns have been taking even more of that money and building $30+ million dollar schools with the State picking up the lions share of the costs.
Why should the entire State be funding these new schools. I thought the State funding the 55o/o was meant to help the class, the learning, better educating the students. A multi million dollar building is not going to make a student learn more. The towns are trying to out do there neighbor to be able to say "Mine is better /bigger than yours"
When the town tells their voters that they can have a $30 million dollar school and it will only cost the town $5 million, they are correct. But the town isn't the one paying taxes it is the people of the town and the rest of the tax payers in the State that are paying the entire amount.

How many new schools have been built in the last five years, total that amount and figure out how much that State tax payer is paying. How many more new schools will be built in the next 5 years.

Apollo
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The Return of TABOR

Hate to disagree. TABOR will never pass in this state because there are too many people getting too much from the government. The anti TABOR people will run the same type of campaign they ran before and they will win in the same way. They'll pour in millions of dollars from out of state, run commercials showing shut down fire stations and unplowed roads, and fly in wagon riders from Colorado.

I for one am not going to be involved in the TABOR campaign this time. The thing I regret more than anything from before is that I spent almost all of my time on TABOR instead of helping Republican candidates. If we can elect the right type of Republicans, TABOR won't be needed.

It's really nice that people that came up with TABOR think of all of these marvelous ideas, and then travel around and talk on the radio about how great it would be if we passed it. But I for one don't intend to go around and get flipped off by the police because I'm putting up a TABOR sign, or be told by a teacher that I'm trying to close down her school, or have a fireman come up to me and demand that I explain to his young daughter why I'm trying to take his job away. The people in this state are so far gone with their entitlement mentality that the only thing that is going to wake them up is bankruptcy or some other severe crisis. Then maybe the legislature can be replaced by some people that actually believe in fiscal restraint. But while the Strimlings of the world continue to be elected by a 3 - 1 margin, there just isn't any point.

Dan Billings
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The Return of TABOR

[quote="Apollo"]The thing I regret more than anything from before is that I spent almost all of my time on TABOR instead of helping Republican candidates. If we can elect the right type of Republicans, TABOR won't be needed.[/quote]

A lesson worth learning.

TABOR diverted resources from GOP candidates and motivated the liberal base.

Naran
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The Return of TABOR

Apollo - now, think about all the time you wasted posting useless, inflammatory headlines and articles on AMG, and add that to the time you could have spent getting good R candidates elected, instead.

Bob Stone
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The Return of TABOR

I agree 100% Apollo. You get nothing but crap from people in town. Mary Adams and team gave an incredible effort last time. For what? To be subjected to lie after lie by the power elite. I'm done. As I said after the campaign, we tried to help people who don't want to be helped.

I'm going to make money, pay my taxes, and watch the bastards struggle. It's a great day. Let's go out and enjoy it!

Apollo
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The Return of TABOR

[quote="Bob Stone"]we tried to help people who don't want to be helped.[/quote]

Perfectly said.

Naran
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The Return of TABOR

To each their own, but if a TABOR campaign comes back, I will work just as hard to collect signatures and help out as I did last time.

Another year has passed, and the denizens of Augusta promised they'd "heard the public" last time around. I believe it's clear to most everyone they did nothing of the kind.

I believe a new TABOR would pass, this time around.

Apollo
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The Return of TABOR

I often wonder if Woodcock would have been elected if TABOR wouldn't have been on the ballot. I think he would have at least been a lot closer to winning.

Jack Wibby
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Continue to March

I'm not done and most of those that I know and with whom I work are not done either. At this very moment, with the tax reform package dead, the tide may be turning against the spenders. We can build on that momentum by creating a statewide organization which will represent Maine taxpayers. There will never be a better time because all those who were up in arms against the reform bill, are still angry.

We can win with a new edition of the Maine Taxpayer Bill of Rights if we can get organized on the local level. Many in the public are now aware that they were suckered by the promises of the Democrats and special interests groups, promises which evaporated after the votes were counted. They will need a lot more than the $2M that they had last time, and we will win anyway.

To the email update that I sent out last Friday I have received many positive responses, and therefore we will try to form a working committee which will in turn encourage the development of grassroots organizations everywhere. All are invited to join in this effort. But just forget about the defeatist talk. If you are willing to do a little work, get in touch.

Jack
657-7737
jwibby@maine.rr.com

Peter
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The Return of TABOR

TABOR did not hurt the GOP in the past election- The GOP hurt the GOP.
We (the GOP) need to own the fact that we are not connecting with the voters of Maine.

To suggest that TABOR motivated the liberal left is utter non-sense. The left would of found another issue to motivate its base- as they always do.
The folks who were passsionate about TABOR might of sat out the past election cycle had it not been for TABOR,one cant assume any differently.

We lack leadership and we embrace the good ole boy network. Thats why we lose.

Dan Billings
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The Return of TABOR

Imagine if a similar amount of effort was put into recruiting candidates for the Legislature and building an organization to help them in every town and city?

Peter
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The Return of TABOR

I agree,
However my group is so disgusted with the Elected GOP since the election
no one cares to meet.

Naran
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The Return of TABOR

Jack - I'm with you. Think how much easier collecting signatures would be this time around, because there are so many who now know what a Taxpayer Bill of Rights is, and what it could do for Maine.

I bet we'd get that 50,000 signatures in half the time it took previously.
8)

MarkSeger
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The Return of TABOR

The local level is no better than the State level, look at all the re-evaluations and what the mil rates are set up after. Even with the Auburn revolt that fizzled or because it fizzled. Town are setting the values beyond any reasonable amounts and no off setting the mil rate accordingly.

I just got mine and they claim it is worth three times what I paid for it and I have only owned it for less then a year. The house we sold was evaluated at double what the highest offer we got for it. How can they claim it is worth a certain amount when the buying market does not dictate any where near the set amount that the towns establish.

They did not hear the people and with the defeat of the Taxpayers Bill of Rights it gave them Card Blanca to do whatever they want.

Roger Ek
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Party Time in Augusta

"TABOR 2.0 should ban all unfunded mandates from Augusta and cap State Spending only at the CPI. It also must include funding 55% of Education."

That would be a license for the towns to install swimming pools, new auditoriums stadiums and bus fleets, all in the name of education. Hey, if Augusta will pay 55%, why not?

I posted a list of unfunded mandates to the schools from Augusta last Wednesday night after our school budget meeting. Augusta doesn't need that administrative churn. If they had to pay for it they would cut out most of it.

Peter
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The Return of TABOR

Roger
There is more accountability at the local level.

Dan Billings
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The Return of TABOR

That's nuts. Local government often hold elections at times when nobody votes and elections are often uncontested.

Michelle Anderson
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The Return of TABOR

[quote="Apollo"]The thing I regret more than anything from before is that I spent almost all of my time on TABOR instead of helping Republican candidates. If we can elect the right type of Republicans, TABOR won't be needed.
[/quote]

I have a couple of thoughts on this as well.

First of all, I believe it is [b]NEVER[/b] a mistake to fight for what you believe in.

As one who has lost more than I can ever tally up due to standing up for my beliefs and Constitutional rights, I must say I wish it had been otherwise: I certainly wish that those who have the power to enlist gang stalkers and the power to economically blackmail honest citizens did not have that power. I wish that those who do have that power would not use it against those who speak out against the tyranny practiced right here in the formerly "ruggedly independent" state of Maine.

But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. It is an unfortunate fact of life that those who stand up for their beliefs, like those who fought for the same ideals in the 18th century, are going to be outnumbered and outpowered by those with official standing and money.

However, giving up is exactly their goal, and I am afraid I could not live with myself were I to crumble beneath that power and relinquish my rights and, by proxy, the rights of those who are too weak or too afraid to stand up.

Secondly, one need only look at the recent goings-on in Augusta vis-a-vis the "tax reform" monster to realize that it is not a Democrat vs. Republican problem, but rather a sell-out vs. stalwart problem. I watched in horror as some of the most revered Republicans agreed to tax all but the very air we breathe, while one of the most liberal Democrats in the state stood up against this tyranny.

There are no "right kind of Republicans" in this state; there are only people interested in furthering the state's tyranny and those who are interested in stopping it.

I have heard from many people that I suffer from delusions of grandeur; that the fight which has cost so many of my friends so much economically and emotionally cannot be compared to that of our founding fathers. I disagree. It is the exact same fight, but without the muskets and tea. At this point, anyway.

A couple of months ago, after a local group of political opponents published the name and contact information of my employer, along with urging people to call and complain about me (though my employment is not local, and it has nothing to do with politics or government), I was about to give up. I woke up one night during that period with two quotes on my mind.

[quote]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.[/quote]

[quote]It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.[/quote]

We [b]ARE[/b] the people; we [b]ARE[/b] the governed. And to abdicate our fight under pressure of tyrants is unthinkable, given the history of this country.

Virgil Kane
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The Return of TABOR

[i] If we can elect the right type of Republicans, TABOR won't be needed.[/i]

This sentiment makes a lot of sense, but ideally, I would prefer a restraint on what the legislature can do rather than relying on what individual legislators would or wouldn't do. In the event we don't have a good legislature (e.g., the last 30 years) a legal restraint on what they can do is needed. Perhaps, if we could elect the right type of Republicans, TABOR could be passed in the Legislature and wouldn't need to go out to referendum.

But, maybe a good idea would be to use the TABOR question from the last election as a litmus test for potential new candidates. Can't fiscal conservatives in the GOP look back and see who were the Rs who fully backed, and worked hard in support of TABOR during the last election? There were plenty, I'm sure. Maybe the fiscal conservatives in the GOP can sort through them, find those people willing to run and recruit them to run for office. Back them in the primaries, etc. With the right candidates, fiscal conservatism can become a real component of the Maine Republican Party.

Shandier
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The Return of TABOR

I have an interesting perspective on this. Before the election, parents and teachers were told that if TABOR passed, the kids would suffer. Music, art, phys ed would be gone from schools. Sports programs would be pay to play IF they existed at all. They were told that if TABOR failed, the schools would be fine.

I heard a conversation I wished I had been able to record back in October. Someone left TABOR pamphlets in my teachers room. The teachers not only said all of the above, they speculated about who had brought the pamphlets in and taking away their union card and even better "take him out behind the woodshed and show him what I think of TABOR"

In May, we were told that there would be huge cuts if the school budget didn't pass, we would lose at least one teacher, sports, and other such cuts. So much for schools being fine. I know of many area school departments are losing their sports, art, music, and phys ed classes. Why? Because the state isn't giving the 55% it's supposed to after the vote by the people. You should have heard the discussion in my teachers room. I wanted to record that one too. How evil the state is etc. I sooo wanted to remind them of the October conversation, but didn't because I didn't want to be dragged out behind the woodshed.

I hope TABOR comes back. I hope it passes this time. We aren't going to pay less in taxes until Augusta controls the SPENDING. We don't have a tax problem in Maine, we have a spending problem. I do think it'll be a long hard battle once again. There are too many people living off the system who should be working and paying their own way.

Dan Billings
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The Return of TABOR

[quote="Virgil Kane"][This sentiment makes a lot of sense, but ideally, I would prefer a restraint on what the legislature can do rather than relying on what individual legislators would or wouldn't do.[/quote]

Agreed, but no statute, including TABOR, can restrain what the Legislature can do.

Virgil Kane
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The Return of TABOR

True, we'd need to put that in the Constitution. But at least a statute would bind the local govts.

hatchcar
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The Return of TABOR

A little help here. Could you tell me who were the main forces, other than people who live out of state, who fought against TABOR? Such things as trade associations, business groups, etc. Does anyone have that information, or where could I go to obtain it? Just making a hunch about this, but just want to be sure.

Bob Stone
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The Return of TABOR

Jim Bennett - City of Lewiston
Phil Nadeau - City of Lewiston
Pat Finnigan - City of Auburn
Mr. Walker - MEA
Dana Connors - Maine State Chamber of Commerce
Peter Mills - State Senator
All Democrat legislators
The Blonde Banker from Yarmouth
Mark Gray - MEA
Geoff Hermann - MMA
Chris Lockwood - MMA
The Town Manager from St. Agatha

That's a start

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