Smart meters, yet another intrusion?
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Robert: The pricing system would need to be carefully contructed and I think your skepticism is well based. However, energy prices are going to be going up in the years ahead. We need to consider alternatives to the current model.
Islander: CMP is supported by a distribution charge. CMP does not produce electricty. If electricity use is shifted and more stable throughout the day, it could help avoid the need and cost of new production.
Naran: Life isn't fair. As Robert notes, pricing is used all the time to reduce demand. Hence the term, supply and demand. The reality is that increased demand at peak time causes the need for new energy plants. The marginal cost of new production is high and drives up everyone's costs.
Again, I am not endorsing a change. But the press spikes we saw just a short time ago will come again and prices may stay high next time. We need to consider change.
Thanks Dan, and if you believe that, I have a bridge for sale.
Robert - sorry, but your analogy doesn't work. The reason being, there are lots of lodging options from which to choose - anywhere from very modest cabins to oceanfront B&B's that will sizzle your credit card balance to a fare-thee-well.
Consumers have no choice when it comes to the electric company that delivers their "juice."
Yes, I agree that utility costs will likely continue to rise. A closed system means prices will rise to meet the cost of providing those services. As more practice conservation, the revenues will shrink, which means prices will rise.
However, like the unfair excise tax system we have now (where prices should be based on weight, not on fancy bell and whistle vehicles), I still say that utility costs should be more evenly divided among consumers.
Consumers have no choice when it comes to the electric company that delivers their "juice."
You are somewhat correct Naran. I am stuck with CMP to deliver the juice, but I have many options when it comes time to buy the juice, if I had the time and energy to shop around.
Naran: Consumers would have a choice on when they use electricity. I can do my laundry when I get home in the early evening and demand is high or I can put a load in the dryer when I go to bed. I would be more likely to choose the second option if there were an economic incentive to do so.
As for your claim that conservation leading to higher prices that would be the case in a closed system but that is not what we have today. Electicity production is no longer regulated in Maine. If a plant is not needed to produce power, the ratepayers do not pay for it.
The funny thing is that many posts in this thread make it seem like the status quo is working well.
Myself, I think life is complicated enough these days, without families having to think about when to turn on the washing machine. In a household with both parents working, kids in school, homework, sports schedules, pets to care for - honestly -- how much more "detail" and schedules do families need to deal with, these days?
Like they need to worry about exactly what time of day is cheaper for running the dryer.
Having been through it Naran, I agree.
Naran: But people can get up at 3:00 AM to get deals on Christmas presents?
Simplicity comes at a cost. We build power plants that are only really needed a few days a year. If we can use pricing to avoid those costs, I think it is worth considering -- though any plan would need to be carefully considered and I am not endorsing the idea.
But what we are doing now is not working.
Naran: But people can get up at 3:00 AM to get deals on Christmas presents?
Simplicity comes at a cost. We build power plants that are only really needed a few days a year. If we can use pricing to avoid those costs, I think it is worth considering -- though any plan would need to be carefully considered and I am not endorsing the idea.
But what we are doing now is not working.
Dan, a very small percentage of people woke up at 3:00 a.m. and they do it once a year. To use that to suggest that everyone in Maine can continuously (and safely) to turn our heat down in the winter to keep our bills affordable, for example is not a good evidence.
I don't buy for a minute that tiered pricing is meant to reduce consumption and that CMP is doing it for the good of the environment. They, a monopoly, make a higher profit when we use electricity for essentials and smile and say "it's what's best." What's next, taxing groceries and telling us that by making them costlier that we'll end our obesity problem?
"What's next, taxing groceries and telling us that by making them costlier that we'll' end our obesity problem?"
Isn't that precisely what's been done concerning smoking?
charlie
Charlie, yes, but people don't have to smoke (I know for some it FEELS like they need to smoke) but they do have to eat just like we need electricity. I know we can debate needing electricity, but I don't have the resources like most other people in Maine to go off the grid. Candlelight is nice as long as it's with dinner. : )
They will not tax all groceries only the ones they don't like, sort of like a snack tax.
There have now been electrical fires reported where smart meters have been installed in several counties in California, in Alabama, and in other countries like New Zealand. Reports detail that the meters themselves can smoke, smolder and catch fire, they can explode, or they can simply create overcurrent conditions on the electrical circuits.
Maine is briefly mentioned in the link below
From the link above AMI-enabled dynamic pricing is simply a type of time-of-use or time-differentiated pricing.
The utility uses the AMI system to “enable” customers to reduce their electricity use,
particularly during CPPs. Under this approach the price for electricity use during a CPP
is set quite high, perhaps five times greater than the normal rate, for example $0.80 per
kWh versus $0.16/kWh. The utility notifies participating customers approximately oneday
in advance of an upcoming CPP and uses the AMI system to record the customer’s
actual hourly use during the CPP.
There was a time when the idea was to improve service so as to improve business...Now the idea is to provide less, less reliably, for a bigger price.
Dan so If peak electric use is between 5pm and 7 pm People are going to cook dinner later and wait until elven to watch the news or catch up on their email or do laundry??? Maybe they will sit in the dark until 9 pm each night? What are the chances municipalities will turn offf street lights for a few hours during peak demand?How exactly are businesses such as restaurants and retail stores going to change their times of use??? ..... Electricity retail is not subject to supply and demand like other sources of energy. And most everyone knows that CMP is not the actual owner of the electric utility but we all use it as a point of reference.....Have electric rates ever gone down? Other energy prices certainly have as demand has ebbed and flowed.
I would also think that peak usage times will be constantly changing, your rates will never go down
johnw: Electrical rates have gone up and down in Maine in recent years. Because natural gas is such a big part of our electricity supply today, rate go and up down based on where gas prices are when the standard offer rate comes up for bid.
Smart grid, smart meters and lots of learning ahead: What consumers ought to know
It hasn’t been the smoothest Nice-to-meet-you.
Since Central Maine Power began installing its new smart meters a month ago, Mainers have been introduced to the concept of a “smart grid” via publicized fears of cancer-causing airwaves, cyber spying and homes catching on fire.
“Starting off with that kind of negative impact, it’s hard to get out of that hole, to get a neutral response,” Public Advocate Richard Davies said.
CMP tells forum its 'smart' meters are safe from hackers, fire
http://www.theforecaster.net/content/s-scarsmartmeterforum2-121710
CMP tells forum its 'smart' meters are safe from hackers, fire
And Toyota said all of their vehicles were safe.
Robert, there are some scary things presented in that article! For example, one guy had his TV fried during the smart meter installation because he didn't unplug it. CMP said the technician knocked on his door first. Well what about people who aren't home?!
George Gamble from Black & Veatch, CMP's security company, said the company followed several standards regulating this kind of technology and that it is as safe from attack as it can be. "There's always holes in every system," he said. "We are running through our own vulnerabilities and doing a lot of work on the back side."
So even their own reps admit that it's not possible to make it bullet-proof.
workingclassschlep-
re: bulletproof
It was stated a page ago that no system is 'bulletproof'.
You might as well be posting articles about the dangers of gravity.
Punk I was stating that CMP acknowledged that it's not bulletproof. THAT is new.
Did you read the whole article?
I get a kick out of reading these articles in the PPH of the people that can sense the RF from the meters.
I think everyone agrees that:
1. Smart Meters are on the same frequency as wireless routers.
2. That the Smart Meter signal is stronger outside a building vs. inside the building. (doesn't anyone remember climbing up on a window to get a good cell signal :) ?)
3. That the Wireless router signal strenght exceeds the smart meter signal as it is inside the home/office, etc..
4. Laptops with Wireless enabled emit the same or more RF than a smart meter and wireless is enabled by default at the factory.
Now, help me understand how in two public meetings at Scarborough Town Hall for 5 hours and at the South Portland Community Center for 3 hours these people who sense RF never sensed the RF from the wireless routers that were active in both buildings before during and after the meetings with reporters on laptops/ wireless devices, cell phones, etc. in the meeting? The signal strength of these wireless routers inside the building far exceed one little smart meter outside the home, yet not a word was mentioned, not a thought was lost, and the meeting went on and no one was injured. Hmm. This does not pass the sniff test. I asked both reporters that wrote stories on the two meetings why they did not do some investigative reporting on the router facts but neither did, instead focusing on touchy-feely story. I also got a kick out of the one lady complaining, that said when she exits her house she feels better. Hello lady, when you exit your house you are expose to much higher RF. So who is telling the truth? You decide.
Parts of rural Maine have had smart meters for years to eliminate the necessity of meter readers.
The meters send the usage every 27 hours to the billing department of the power company.
Smart meter caused Portland woman's security system to short out:
http://www.wlbz2.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=143611&catid=3
"Simplicity comes at a cost."
Dan, have you priced complexity? ( sorry, had to say that.)
Most products that vary in price, cost less when bought in volume. Does gas cost less when the lines are long? Do groceries cost less late on Fridays? Do plumbers charge less when demand says," overtime" ?
My car burns gas when it runs. If it would burn that gas as it sets in the garage , it would be cheaper?
"Flip the switch and we will always be there." well,,,,,,maybe not.
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Naran, it is called dynamic pricing. It is done all of the time in certain industries. Do you pay the same price for the same room on OOB in the winter, as you would in the summer?
Punk asked,
"Robert -
re: tiered/cost-rise
Has this been the case with all the other AMI implementations in the US and abroad? Please site."
Please read the link below.
I can offer this
Dynamic pricing = Time-based pricing is a special case of price discrimination in which producers charge different rates for a given good or service depending on the time, day, month, and so on.