Traditional use essential for Katahdin Lake lands

Dan go away your bothering me with your nonsense.

Standing up for property rights is nonsense? You are a Commie!

xjdigger: Evolve.

I own almost 90 acres of prime hunting land...including frontage on a pretty sizable beaver pond. My land IS posted, but I allow deer hunters access when they stop and ask, AND if they haven't been drinking. One man stopped to ask, and he was so drunk he could hardly stand up straight...but that was only one out of many. And since I find trapping animals and hounding animals abhorrant, I'd refuse them all..but none of that ilk have ever been considerate enough to ask...and I have heard hound dogs during the night not that far away. I had one hound hanging around my house for a full day....skinny as a rail...all his bones were showing...had a collar with a name on it and telephone number...the owners phone had been discontinued. I was about to have the dog taken to the animal shelter, but it disappeared. Lovely.

I live on a dirt road. Last year there were a couple of kids tearing past my house on ATV's going at least 50 mph. Just blind luck they weren't killed, or killed somebody else coming along over the hill in a car or walking. ATV's have torn up wood trails all over this area during mudseason, and they made a real mess of a hayfield at the begining of the road. Land that was never posted before , is now posted. NO TRESPASSING excludes everybody...hikers as well as hunters, and it's really too bad.

I think you have a reason for being hatefull to people who don't agree with you 100% on hunting/trapping/ ATV issues...but I have no idea what it is. I'm an individual...not "a liberal" or "A" anything. You might want to consider gettng to know somebody, before you insult the crap out of them, (and make a fool of yourself doing it). Because digger...if you stop and think of people you admire most in the world...I don't think they would have your amount of vitrol addressing issues with real people. Hurling insults, shadows your origional points, and reduces the conversation to the level of grade-school juvenile tantrums.

A lot of land is being posted that was never posted in the past. It's not all becasue "liberal democrats" own it. And it would behove all us native Mainers (non native too)...hunters and non-hunters alike, to consider the reasons why and work together to find a solution.

apondsong

Don't get me wrong I am not hateful but maybe direct when it comes to the liberal rule makers. The ATV law may make sense in a limited fasion in your southern region. But I don't believe it.

You proved my point. You own private property, You can restrict your porerty as you see fit.

Up North here, we have wood lands that go from one owner block to another and it is almost impossible to find an owner to get permission when the Land owners including international paper company allows all ATV's in their lands. But the law says that individuals have to find them and get permission or a game warden can arrest them and charge them a $500.00 fine on that same property that the owner would have given permission. That sound like an ignorant liberal rule to me.

This is a pure example to where the urban people do not understand the rural culture and you guys who have 75% of the voting power to impose your unrealistic rules onto us.

You may think that this is hateful language, but if you were us you would look at you and your utopian laws and be upset.

digger, I leave for one day and come back and find you're still at it. Sheesh! You don't listen. Before the atv law was enacted some large landowners had banned them due to problems like trespassing during posted mud season, rutting fields and trails, illegal hunting, etc. (and in my case the destruction of all my seedlings). Just as some landowners have banned bear hunting with dogs, as I mentioned earlier. Problem was, it wasn't enforced. The fines made people sit up and listen. Now, since the atv law was passed, I see most landowners have posted their land unless they've given clubs permission to maintain atv trails. You have to understand that it was not the "liberal" left enviro movement that asked for the atv ban. I agree they've made an assault on other issues, but this time it WAS the landowners who wanted this blanket bill on atvs. It was a free-for-all in some instances and the wardens were getting sick of it. There is a bit of a democracy at work here. Time to find a new topic.
How about the Atlantic salmon?

Blue jay
I see what your post is about. You want to keep spreading your Nature conservancy message to try and convince people that we have to ban all use of wood lands. This is not working for me.

The only land owners I know in this region banning use are the environmentalist liberals who want to create their image of what a marxist utopian society should look like.

As long as this subject keeps pinging on my computer I am going to expose your liberal ways of imposing your way of failed utopian life onto others.

I don't hunt bear, deer and little squirrels, but I don't believe I have a right to impose that onto others.

I bet you are a PETA person. Did you know that they were killing the animals and throwing hundreds of them into dumpsters on Thursday night before pick-up, because they did not want to spend their donated money on feeding them. It was only the money that counts. Those guys are in court maybe they can get some free room and board.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

You guys will lie cheat and steal to get your donations so you can live like fat cats. I would recomend you guys to go and get a real job, rather than sucking off grant funds from my tax dollars and all the donations that you can bilk from the people thinking that you have a worthy cause.
http://www.activistcash.com/index.cfm

xjdigger thinks it is unreasonable to require people to know whose land they are on.

That says it all.

You want to keep spreading your Nature conservancy message to try and convince people that we have to ban all use of wood lands.
-------------------------------

You speak with great authority. But please: back up your claim by telling us about one single acre of Nature Conservancy land in northern Maine that does not allow hunting and fishing, public access, etc. Just one acre, please, out of three hundred thousand or so.

krueshtef
Remind me.
Where did I say that the Nature conservency has banned there use of land?
But can you tell me where they are allowing the industrial use of the land, for the local economy.
I would assume that their design was to restrict the use of the land from the States economic benifit. Which drives industry and jobs out. The Nature Conservancy is not as holly as they paint a prety face over. I know one place where they are guilty of election tampering, to control the local communities government. That is Millinocket where there were more votes than voters but the Maine attorney general refused to investigate after several calls of complaint.

I can fact check your question than I will post.

Dan - I'm still ignoring you :)

Isn't the Nature Conservancy doing major cutting on their land in the north woods to pay for their recent purchases?

Yes.

No one can deny fishing on any body of water that is 10 acres of larger. That is Maine law.
That is why Quimby and the Nature Conservancy and all the enviro grougs allows say they allow fishing, they can't stop it. Of course they can limit access.

Digger: I thought your last post to me was a real improvement over the first.

I can hear you. The land up North is vast and unpopulated...but wouldn't that make finding the owners of those large tracts that more easy, rather than difficult? I wasn't all that sure what you were telling me about the paper companies allowing ATV's. I was under the impression they were banned..did I read you wrongly?

A THOUGHT: I think it might be worth considering seperating some laws made into the catagory of organized and unorganized townships. I believe the time has come for hunters and trappers to obtain permisson in organized townships before entering a landowners property with the intent to shoot a shotgun, rifle, or set traps for furbearing animals. Further north, on vast tracts (hundreds and thousands of acres)of unpopulated land, that rule would be less necessary I should think.

I own 90 acres of prime hunting grounds. That means the land is varied and diverse. There is a river running right through it...too wide to cross on foot. There are bogs, and wetlands as well as vast raspberry thickets. There are ridges running its length that are almost straight UP to ascend...little open medows....beautiful for wildlife. AND IMPOSSBLE TO THINK I COULD CARRY A LADDER AND PILE OF SIGNS, STAKES(ETC)TO POST IT EVERY 100 FREAKING FEET ALL AROUND THE BOARDER EVERY DAMN YEAR !!! That's just insanity. And you know what, digger? * IF just ONE of those signs gets torn down or ripped off, a hunter can be on my property, and say he didn't see any NO TRESPASSING sign because he entered where one is now "missing" ! * Now...you tell me how fair that is (??) ....... :shock:

I'd be very willing to let ATV riders use the trails if they were responsible people who didn't tear-ass through the woods like lunatics, and kept the trails open and clean. I don't want people ripping up the alderlands where the woodcock nest and feed their young, or tearing up newgrowth appletrees that will replace the old wild stand-bys in years to come. I don't want them tearing up the highbush blueberries, partridgeberries, bunchberries and honeysuckle bushes. Asking permission is simply fostering good relations between the sportsmen and landowners...that's a win-win situation. And why couldn't co-operating landowners be registered with the state in a directory which shows open land acerage and access, address and phone number...then give those owners a tax break for heavens sake ! Something to think about.

Your post is so full of urban attitude where it says I got mine keep out. The only time we see anti social people like you are when they move up from the southern places and they are bothered so easily by other people. I guess that is the way you guys are when your population is packed to tight. You become distrustful of everyone.

I enjoy meeting people on my land and stop and talk awhile. I will discuss with younger ATV riders about proper behavior. Kids have stopped and helped me in the garden just for something to do before and I gave them a few bucks for gas. There is a big difference between the urban attitude and the rural attitude. So don't support the laws that unfairly restrict everyone when they do not apply.

The Main point about property rights in America (Not some socialist place) is that you have the right to dictate your own policies of your own property. And don't worry about the small stuff.

You need to also understand that the Marxist (Liberal) attitude is that a country should have no personal property rights and that is the attitude from your point of view. The state holds all the rights and dictates how one should behave by supplying restrictive laws for everything. That is the impression that people are not responsible and laws are needed to control behavior. This works its way up to the Marxist (liberal) rule, that you don't have the right to work hard and make more money than someone else without a progressive tax to pay to those who don't want to work as hard.

I find that most people who buy into the liberal attitude do not know how they become to fall into that attitude. It was taught to them in the schools and by the liberal press, which is designed to manipulate and control the public for socialist purposes.

Once most people understand that the Marxist (Liberal) attitude has been promoted by the left to abolish common sense and steal our freedoms that the country was founded upon, start to change that attitude to a more conservative attitude of respecting that other people have their own individual rights and freedoms.

You have so many false presentations in your writing that don't justify the main point of the discussion, that individuals have the property rights of their own possessions, and should not be dictated like communist rulership by a government of the people by the people and for the people. We should not be sending representatives to the government who don't truly work in our interest but work for a minority of special interest. Those special interests have ruined our industry and lost our jobs, so that we all have to live by the rules of Marxism.

Digger: WTF ??? :lol:

That's the craziest mess of vacuous paranoia I've read on here in a LONG time! Good for a laugh, except that it's too narrowmindedly pathetic to laugh at.

I gave you a fair shake...SO ~~~~~~>Have fun projecting your anger onto somebody who thinks you're worth being slimed by, cuz.....It ain't me, babe. :?

apondsong

This is not anger or conspiracy theory or anything else. I get direct to the point when people want to present false testomony to advance their agenda. I can be wrong about your story, but in the rural world we do not have so many lunatics ripping through the woods. I have kids using my property and I don't see the problems you want to defend your libral laws to restict the activities of human kind.

As I said this could be the difference between urban and rural worlds and you could have a bunch of lunitics ravaging your property with ATV's but it sounds like B.S. to me.

Editor's Note: AMC says screw hunters, trappers, private property cabin owners, snowmobilers, etc.

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006
From: "Appalachian Mountain Club"
Subject: AMC's March Conservation Update

Fulfilling Governor Baxter's Vision in Maine

Piece by piece, Maine's Governor Percival Baxter acquired woods, waters, and mountains to create Baxter State Park and forever preserve the area around Mount Katahdin. However, the lands surrounding Katahdin Lake eluded Governor Baxter, and we have a once in a lifetime opportunity to finish what governor Baxter began. The Maine legislature is considering a bill which would allow a land deal to add 6,000 acres around Katahdin Lake to Baxter State Park.

Mainers, take action! Call you legislators and ask them to support this bill, LD 2015. You can find their contact information here: http://ga0.org/amc/leg-lookup/search.html

For more information, visit http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cfm?content_item_id=20428&folder_id=259

Editor

This land in question has been used for sporting and enjoying ever since we could get up there. Even Gov Baxter hunted and cut wood on these lands. Gov Baxter had the forest cut before he turned it over for a state park.

Now we have a bunch of idiological liberals wanting to take the lands from the people who have grown up enjoying it and saying no more use. That is the wrong thing to do.

Every piece of land lost to the envionmentalist control is another chip of their movement to remove land from Maines economic use. That is hunting trapping and fishing, harvesting. or tourisim. You go where they have been and youfind this to be true.

Harvesting the land does not ruin the forest, it is a renewable resource. If the trees are not harvested they are going to die and fall down upon maturity any way. Old growth forest does not support the wildlife like new growth forest either.

Furthermore hardly any people get a chance to enjoy lands that are locked up by the environmentalist when they do not allow ATVs and Snowmobiles. People are not going to walk that far to enjoy the lands. So the lands are removed from human use in most circumstances.

Also I will present some links that show where the nature conservance has taken land and given it to its individual board members for private use. They stole it from people who owned it for generations to use for themselves. Those links are coming.

The environmentalist are going to post behind me calling me a lyer and everything else. but they are the ones who promote false propoganda to achieve thier means.

Lawmakers examine Katahdin Lake hunting
Thursday, March 09, 2006 - Bangor Daily News

AUGUSTA - Sportsmen have had some success hunting bear and moose in the townships on Baxter State Park's eastern border in recent years, although the number of kills near Katahdin Lake is more difficult to track, state officials said Wednesday.

The legislative committee tasked with reviewing a proposal to swap state-owned forests for more than 6,000 acres surrounding Katahdin Lake focused much of its attention Wednesday on hunting opportunities in and around Baxter State Park.

If the deal is successful and the parcel is annexed to the park, members of the public body that oversees the park believe the Katahdin Lake parcel should be off-limits to hunting based on the late Gov. Percival Baxter's writings. Local residents and sporting groups disagree and are urging lawmakers to force the park authority to allow hunting near the lake.

BDN

The issue is not how much successes the hunting is. The issue is that this land should continue to be used by people as it has been for generations. If they out law sporting in the area, most of the people of the past would no longer be able to enjoy the property. The Nature conservancy is responsible for many injustices in this region, and they do it one chip at a time. This deal is just one more maneuver to lock up land use in Maine.

Gov. Percival Baxter was not a God or exceptional mind, he was a good person who made money harvesting the forests and gave some to the state of Maine.. The environmentalist use this issue to add to their propaganda to convince people to believe that this is the right thing to do. They want to convince southern Maine voters who control the north. The reality is this property deal is not a good deal if it means that it is just another piece of land locked up from public use. No sporting. No snowmobile, ATV, No camps next time around when lease is up. Just walking. How many Southern Mainers are going to come up here to walk around.,

When people read the production of propaganda from the Bangor Daily News, you need to understand that they are owned by a Board member of the Natures Conservancy, And was purchased to propagandize the people about their wonderful agenda.

If you think that this is a good deal, start studying the environmentalist groups activities, and what they have done to communities through out the United States. Millinocket had 4300 people employed in the mills, today there is only about 500 people employed.

So propaganda is gong to be written abut how great this deal is to promote a warm and fuzzy feeling that we are going to save nature from man kind. Just remember that this is a lie produced by the environmentalist, Just look at where they have been and see what they have done to innocent families, industry, economics and jobs in the wake of their influences.

If this land deal is allowed to go through without allowing traditional use, it will set us back many steps to the colonial era when the Kings of England laid claim to not only the land, but the all the wildlife as well. The modern-day Kings will be well-healed vegetarians from New York and Hollywood, and the occasional Mainer-cum-millionaire.

What these folks fail to understand is that without the community of concerned hunters, all the wildlife would have long ago disappeared due to commercial interests, driven largely by the fashion industry hungry for furs and feather to dress up the well-healed in New York and Hollywood. Ironic, eh?

One of the greatest freedoms gained when we declared our independence from Britain was the freedom to hunt and fish the wildlife of our new country. That freedom still exists. Because that privilege is under perpetual attack by individuals and organizations that steadfastly refuse to understand the important role hunting holds in our national heritage, we must continue to defend our hunting and fishing tradition.

While property can, and should be owned by an individual, the wildlife belongs to us all. Whether or not someone posts their land, it is the responsibility of the hunter to ask permission to hunt. Likewise, posting of land must not be assumed to mean that access to hunting the wildlife there is denied. Approaching the owner and introducing yourself may often lead to permission being granted. It may often not, and the rights of the property owner prevail. Permission having been granted, it is the responsibility of the hunter to hunt ethically.

Read Beyond Fair Chase by Jim Posewitz for a perspective on this that has the ability to convert even the most ardent anti-hunting, granola-crunching, PETA-joining trust-funder.

If the Sate of Maine misses out on this land deal becaue the hunters and trappers want their way or the highway...it will be one huge mistake...HUGE.

While the property is in the hands of the State (the people)...you will have a say. IF it gets sold to individual rich (probably out of state) fat-cats...you can kiss away any hope of using or even SEEING that land again. And you can take that home to the bank, boyz. Can we say...com pro mise ?

If the Sate of Maine misses out on this land deal becaue the wacko environmental elitists want their way or the highway...it will be one huge mistake...HUGE.

There you go again apondsong as miss informed as ever. Do you even know where this place is. You probably know where Mt Katahdin is. I know you can look at a map, but you don't have a clue. You have been hypnotized to think that what is good for the environmentalist is good for the people. As if the people is a collective called communism.

I have to take the opportunity to remind you that we live in America. And these environmentalists have done more damage to our individual rights and freedoms, not to mention the economy of the society they invade, by hypnotizing you guys to march in lock step to their propaganda. These environmentalist run on a different philosophy than American Freedom. They are borne of the liberal Marxist mind set, where they take over and do not care about individual property rights and freedoms. This Millinocket region use to produce about 4300 jobs in the GNP, (2nd largest employer in Maine)but after they have chipped away the rights and freedoms of the people in the community, the bankrupt industry only provides about 300 jobs for the community. That is not a positive thing that the environmentalist have actually accomplished.

So don’t just study the environmentalist talking points, expand your knowledge to understand the rights and freedoms of America that has been damaged by their wonderful picture they are painting you.

apondsong

I forgot to mention a comment about your posts

You wrote ->While the property is in the hands of the State (the people)...you will have a say. <--
In America our government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. We vote in representatives to manage our government affairs. The government is not our ruler with out the checks and balance of the people, as the marxists try to impose on us. The government does not have the need to own vast property taken from the people against their will.

You wrote ->IF it gets sold to individual rich (probably out of state) fat-cats...<--
This comment is a true progressive comment by Karl Marxist describing the elitist who are bad and need a progressive tax to take away their money and provide to the statehood and support all the people on equal balance. So are you an American or a socialist liberal trying to fight against the freedoms of my country.

Like I said: COMPROMISE

This ground has been private land for hundreds of years. Maine has the oldest registry of deeds in the nation and Maine was owned originally by Georges and Edouard Moores, two brothers who got it from the king. Maine today is still about 94% privately owned, but there are so many easements and restrictions that private ownership has come to mean much less than it used to mean.

As I read down through the list of wants stated by the alphabet soup of green organizations I see that they want the Katahdin Lake area to become government land. They don't want any state land sold to timber companies. They want to eliminate hunting. They want to choke off access to private property in and near Baxter Park. They are doing pretty well in their project. There is just one little hitch in their overall plan for the Katahdin Lake area. It requires a 2/3 majority in the legislature to accomplish.

Compromise? What do the greens bring to the table? What are they prepared to compromise?

About the only thing I've seen them willing to compromise on is how long it will take to reach their goal. Not if, but when.

What a Joke :lol: Boy does ol' Carson have the wool pulled over MAGIC's eye's. He has promissed to increase jobs to the area. I have read all the articles about this move and had a really great laugh at each one of them. Let's just say that his paychecks are about as good to cash as Great Northern's were a few years ago. If it wasn't for Great Northern going under and another company that KFCU had loaned money too going bankrupt as well, this fledgling paddle maker would have gone bankrupt five years ago. I may not know too much about a lot of things but I assume that in order for business to "pick up" one has to have the orders to "pick it up with", in this case he's loseing more orders than he's getting. Perhaps someone at MAGIC should have done a bit more research before they handed over the money to move this business to East Millinocket. Like that fact that almost all of the insurance money he got from the fire went to the bank because he owed them so much. At one point he was between 100,000.00 and 140,000.00 behind in morgage payments on the mill. They were told in a meeting just the other day by Mr. Carson that as of right now, the reason we never know when we will be paid is because he's running the mill week to week, on hopes that his biggest purcaser will order big. How is a company going to hire more employee's when they can barely keep the ones that they have going? Thats right, there are nine permanent worker's there right now, and for at least four months out of each year all but five are layed off. He does hire four or five extra in the summer months but those are temp workers. How is this going to help the workers in the Katahdin area?

Excellent frontpage article in today's BDN about Katahdin Lake Camps and area in general. Good information for those who aren't aware of the history there. (you can read it online)This place is something that should be preserved like other living history museums. It's not just hunters who go there and for it to close would be a sad loss of an old-time Maine sporting camp and a way of life that will soon be gone if not protected. I know the committee is working hard to come up with a plan that will be agreeable to the legislature. Hopefully they can create something that will leave KLCamps intact, with access. There was also a good suggestion in a letter to ed today.

The preservation idea is a hoax. These environmentalist groups only intent is to drive out the people and industry in the mission of re-wilding areas according to their own utopian ideals.

Follow The environmentalists and the industrial destruction across North America., You will find areas with strong heritage of industries and families enjoying life in communities until the environmentalist impose their environmental rules that disrupts the communities and ruins the families of these areas. Maine is not the only State the environmentalist have ravaged the economy and driven the people out.

Preserve our heritage by driving the environmentalists out. These environmental deals do no good that they fool the people into believing. The environmentalist are socialist liberals and have no place in American Society.