Now that is radical throwing someone in jail for snaring a coyote, now there is the heavy hand of government.
Maybe it should be a hanging offense, tit for tat so to speak
A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy
"rabid and ignorant coyote killers"
You just need to understand the viewpoint of radical greens.
"Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs."
John Davis, editor of Earth First! Journal
Deer are a natural part of our ecosystem. Coy-wolves are not. They were introduced as coyotes and soon bred with the red wolf [also not indigenous], replacing the originally introduced species. Because it is nearly impossible to eradicate them every possible advantage must be given by man to the deer.
Under the federal endangered species act any species currently present that is not indigenous is to be afforded no protection whatsoever.
The best protection for the deer is to target the perimeter of winter deer yards with snares. That is the most effective method, where & when the deer are most vulnerable and the location/concentration of coy-wolves are most predictable.
APS knows nothing but what the bunnyhuggers have told her. “It’s not that they don’t know anything, it’s just that so much of what they now isn’t true.”
I do not believe for an instant that all of the biologists agree with the blather she has recited on this site. I know them too and have worked closely with them, many times behind the scene, on many projects and for many years. Much of the good that we snaresmen accomplished was done without fanfare.
Well said, Wm Jas. Thanks for your insight.
Wm Jas: Your post CLEARLY shows just how ignorant you are of Maine's ecosystem, sound wildlife biology AND wildlife management practices. Please share with us your sources. I already expalined how the coyotes made it into Maine and how and why they are here. And why some of them show interbreeding with wolves...(which still leaves them a COYOTE...not a wolf). And still MUCH smaller than an average wolf. But I can't explain the headset of anybody who would further put an endangered species (Lynx) into peril so they might be able to shoot one deer for themselves...for SPORT. Coyotes are here. You don't own the deer up North. Nature knows better than you do...THAT"S obvious !! What else is obvious, is your personal emotional immaturity.
BTW.... if you state a point I have made...don't misrepresent it again. It doesn't help your credibility. But, you already knew that, didn't you.
BUTCH !! You asked for it: You departed once with your tail between your legs for not being able to back up your supposed superior knowledge of our Maine Hunting Laws...with a sadly lame excuse of "not having the patience to continue". That was TRULY pathetic. BTW....I'm wicked glad you're no Mainer.
Mike G: Do you condone breaking the Maine Hunting and Trapping laws?
"Butch" is no Mainer?
Maybe its time for an internal, self-fact-check.
I see lots of bravado starting to swing around this thread and it once again turned into a "coyotes are bad vs coyotes are good" thread. We have strayed far from the original posting.
If I can make a suggestion, can we just dedicate a single "Coyote (mis)information) thread and stop poisioning all others even remotely related to the outdoors please?
Most people don't really understand the issue (some certainly do though) and many really don't care one way or another to be part of a perpetual, repetitive argument on it.
Good suggestion? I'll even start the thread if you want.
Good lawd my man, let's branch out a little and stop making every outdoor topic a "poor coyote" thread. It reminds me of the Bear Referendum a few years back.
You can't play both sides of the native/non-native fence. Monocultures and certain kinds of trees that the forest products industry have introduced are non-native/natural: should we then give Maine's native flora "every advantage" by ridding our forests of these non-native species and alien growing practices?
It's about preferences. The question is not "what belongs," but "what we like" and how we intend to manipulate the environment to that end. We can at least be honest about that.
Personally, I don't care for the practice of wasting yotes--a very intelligent and interesting creature--just so we have more deer to hunt. If folks want to hunt them for fur or whathaveyou, or kill them because their safety is endangered, more power to them.
Coyote hunting is a great sport. There is nothing more thrilling than to call the vermin into rifle range and drill them at a couple hundred yards. Cartwheeling one on the run is also high on my list. Den hunting is also a fine early summer endeavor. If you find a good hot den and do it right, you can pile up the yotes, big and small. No limits and whacking them day or night gives plenty of opportunity for a serious hunter. In the winter, I have found that when a coyote is on the move, they will check every beaver house that is on their route and this is a great place to hijack one.
Another curious thing I have noticed, only crows will feed on a coyote carcass. Bang-Bang!!
My Dad used to know Gene LeTourneau personally. Gene documented in his columns and in his book how coyotes got to Maine. Gene's book is rare now and a collector's item, but the documentation is there if anyone cares to look. There is supposedly a copy at IF&W headquarters, but it's locked up.
America's New "Wolf"
by Gene Letourneau
Publisher: Portland, Me. : Gannett Books, c1984.
ISBN: 0930096347 DDC: 599.74442 LCC: QL737
The idea that lynx are endangered is laughable. During the 2 year study period DIF&W biologist Jennifer Vashon and her husband [who was the trapper] tagged over 100 in the study area. Even though the North Maine Woods is at the southern boundary of their range we are still lousy with the critters. Just over the border, both North & West, they are still trapped for fur.
We will lose the lynx, along with many of our moose, only because we have stopped clear cutting, which provided the re-gen areas that support the hare population that in turn provide nearly all of the diet for the lynx and much of the diet for the moose.
I am the person who convinced Jennifer to put her research into a PowerPoint presentation to share with the public, which she did for the first time with the Aroostook County Chapter of the Maine Trappers Association. She also shared her presentation with several other organizations that I was associated with in northern Maine and then with many others throughout the state.
By the way, after trying in 2 different areas to capture lynx with “friendly” devices they gave up and started using footholds. In addition to the 100+ which they tagged they trapped many others and re-caught tagged lynx, some several times. Theu also caught many non-target species. They were using traps usually used for bobcats and even though lynx have a much more delicate bone structure than bobcats not a single injury incurred during the study. A properly sized and set leghold trap holds, but does not injure the trapped animal. Lighter species do not set off the traps. Larger species pull out. Held animals are rarely injured.
I will not dignify APS’s comments concerning my posts with a response.
"I'm wicked glad you're no Mainer."
Cased closed, or as Uncle Ted would say, "NEXT!"
"I will not dignify APS’s comments concerning my posts with a response."
The main reason why coyote fur is wasted has to do with the fur is murder mindset
Matt G says: "The main reason why coyote fur is wasted has to do with the fur is murder mindset"
Guess they must be a majority now, or sales would be doing just fine. Education is a good thing !
I gained a summer renter and the North Woods lost one, because they told me they couldn't stand looking at the "coyote hats" people were wearing ! They rented a cabin for 15 summers by a lake up there...this was their first year by the ocean for them (and they loved it). FIne with ME !
Butch... I guess you think it's funny that you made such a fool of yourself. And got showed up in the process. I THOUGHT SO TOO !!
Apondsong, first you erroneously claim that "sporting" is referenced in Maine hunting laws, which TJC has clearly shown is false. Then you said you were "wicked glad" I'm not a Mainer, which is again, clearly false. And now you're carrying on about me looking like a fool?
Get a clue! Even better, how about answering instead of running away from the question I asked earlier - how does, "rabid and ignorant coyote killers" fit into the same post with, "I'm not anti-hunting" and make any sense? As they say Downeast, "you can't get theah from heah!"
I don't know which is more hilarious, your erroneous claims or how completely clueless you are to how erroneous they are...
Perhaps it's time to go back to:
Butch taking someone to task for not answering a question--that's precious.
Matt, have some coffee and a smile.
Wm Jas thinks : "Deer are a natural part of our ecosystem. Coy-wolves are not."
It is believed that Red Wolves could have easily ranged as far as Maine at one time. But being much smaller than their cousin the Gray Wolf...they would have had a hard go of establishing fixed and stable terriroty. Gray wolves will chase out and or kill coyotes or the smaller Red Wolf on sight. That is if humans don't mess up the natural balance to any great degree...which the Europeans did, and did horrifically. Maine used to be the home of Wood Bison, Caribou, and Elk. As landscapes evolve and change....the animals adapt. Coyotes and wolves mated due to horrific pressure being put upon them by the ignorance of the people of that time. The Red Wolf and Coyote found themselves in that sort of trouble. Wolves kill coyotes...coyotes kill foxes; but not when they are stressed beyond their limits...then they mate. But that is nature's NATURAL way of adapting and allowing species to survive ! Coyotes on the move through Canada, mated with the wolves there ( wolves that would have normally killed them) who are to this very day, being hunted and trapped without boundries...it creates chaos in an animals life. Maine's ecosystem was open to the coyote or coywolf...it had a void that needed to be filled...and nature is filling it. A much needed void I might add ! And some humans, ignorant of facts and good wildlife management practices,...respond with knee-jerk fear tactics rather than sound thinking based on decades of data and experience. But there is no excuse for the educated to support it....other than govermental job security, directly linked to politics and a few who believe they personally own the wildlife in the North woods ....THAT being directly linked to hunting camp and DO-RAY-ME. It isn't rocket science.
BTW...I think you probably made two mistakes in another post Wm. One was inadvertant (probably)..in so much that a lynx is a larger animal than its bobcat cousin, I can't imagine a bobcat's bones would be larger more solid than that of a lynx. "Delicate" I believe was your adjective of choice...odd one, tho.
Butch: How erroneous of you !! Baaaaawwwwk buk buk buk bawwwwwwwk.. How's our NEW HAMPSHIRE boy doing? Still rifling through the Maine's Hunting and Fishing and Trapping Law book...trying to find justification for that one hunting regulation error you so cleverly spotted on your first quick scan of my post ! Any luck yet???? Not yet??? (awwwwww...poor baby). Do you really think you can do an organized deer drive in Maine? How about running a deer with hound dog??? Or was it the illuminating of a deer you think might be ok...??? (hummmmmmmm)..................... Let me know when you decide.
Now....I have no problem answering you Butch. None at all. I have experienced first hand the rabid and ignorant coyote killers (LMD has as well) . They think the coyotes out this way are ravaging the deer herds .... thinning them down to nary anything at all. They think it is fun to turn packs of hound dogs onto a coyote, chase it to exhaustion ...and then tear it up. They MIGHT hop on an ATV if they are by a field or pasture...heaven forbid they have to WALK into the woods and find a coyote; one on one. They stand by their trucks and have a smoke, drink coffee and eat doughnuts...whatever the drink or snack of the day may be. You can usually tell by the garbage they leave behind. Some at least don't litter...but enough do. They wait for the dogs to come back....if they are bloody, then maybe they killed the coyote...but...who knows..... And they are off to set the dogs on the next one. NO respect for landowners rights or wishes WHAT SO EVER. If they want to turn the dogs loose in your pasture...even tho it is posted...tough luck: "My dog can't read your sign...har har har". "I ain't on your land....mah dog is...ain't nuthin' you can do about it". " I TRAIN mah dogs on Sunday...get over it". The game wardens out here BEG us to contact our legislator to get some decent laws in place. They are as fed up with it as we are. And they don't consider it "hunting" either. Nor do they think it is necessary to do...not one that I have personaly spoken to thus far. These individuals are giving real hunters and sportsmen a very bad name. They aren't hunters...they are killers. There is a BIG difference between the love of killing an animal and the love of hunting. I respect the latter and have nothing but disgust for the former. You are welcome to hunt on my land if you just ask, so we can meet and I can deem you to responsible and sober in your hunt. I doubt you can tell me anything I don't already know about deer or bird hunting....not being arrogant..just true. YOU, on the other hand.....are arrogant with nothing to back yourself up with...and insecure to the point of not being able to admit it when you have made a mistake. AND, you are stupid enough to try and be insulting after you were given a gracefull OUT of an embarassing s situation(MAINE HUNTING LAWS 101. So, ol' buddy...you asked for it. You got it. That's MY sound answer to your weenie little attempt at an insult question. Oh...just to help you out:
rab·id /ˈræbɪd/ Show Spelled
[rab-id] Show IPA
1. irrationally extreme in opinion or practice: a rabid isolationist; a rabid baseball fan.
"How's our NEW HAMPSHIRE boy doing?"
I don't know, who is "our NEW HAMPSHIRE boy"?
You're starting to sound worse than Bill Randall...
Your assertions that "sporting" is somehow linked to Maine hunting laws is bogus, and you know it. TJC has shown it, and I've shown that it isn't a term used in wildlife management. Yet you continue to ignore the facts like a typical left wing anti-hunting/animal rights fanatic.
In addition, your lack of hunting knowledge causes you to jump to erroneous conclusions because you don't know any better. In fact, you don't even know you don't know any better, so let me educate you a bit about "deer drives." Yes, most people think of the line of people walking through the woods making noise, but that's not the only way it's done. From wisconsinhunter.com:
"Slower, quieter "nudging" type drives can also produce good results where hunters just quietly walk thru the woods, and the deer move out in a more orderly fashion. This can have particularly good results for bow hunters. "
This is perfectly legal according to Maine law:
"Driving deer or taking part in a deer drive is unlawful, except that 3 or fewer persons may hunt together, without the aid of noisemaking devices."
So, the "nudging type drive" with 3 people or less walking quietly through the woods moving deer around is perfectly legal in Maine, at least according to the MDIFW officials I've talked with about it. Of course you won't believe that, because you still don't know you don't know any better and no "evil hunter" is going to tell you anything or get in the way of your anti-hunting/animal rights agenda.
BTW, deer drives, as in the noisy type, are perfectly legal in many states. Your assertion that "it's not sporting" is total BS. From a wildlife management perspective, it's how effective a technique is and whether or not the resource can handle the number of animals harvested that matters, nothing more. Baiting deer is even legal in other states, but you probably won't believe that either because it doesn't fit your agenda.
Basically, nothing any of us say will make any difference to you, so all we can hope for by responding to your ridiculous posts is to show other just how little you actually know about anything to do with the topic of hunting, hunting laws, and pretty much everything to do with wildlife management.
As I said, you're starting to sound worse than Bill Randall...and that's really saying something...
Could apondsong BE Bill Randall? There's a thought.
SLOW, QUIET, NUDGING DEER-DRIVE ??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! (omg) DEER-NUDGING !!! With THREE people !??? Likened to an old fashioned deer drive Brother...I've heard it all now !!! hahahahahaha.......
OMG Butch....that's really REALLY good ! "OK guys (errrr well...you two) ...let's go nudge us a few deer" !!
You can nudge a deer around all day to kingdom come and all it will do is walk away from you and circle you till the cows come home. 3 hunters ain't NEVAH going to "nudge" an adult hunt-savey deer into the path of tiheir fellow 'nudger'...unless it's Maine's stupidest deer, or a skipper with no human experience what-so-ever ....and has no learned fear of man. In which case, the first person that spots it will be able to shoot it...no nudging needed; it will be too curious and inexperienced.
Butch...how old ARE you? A deer DRIVE is a DRIVE...the deer are panicked, and they are put on the run so they can't take the time to use their senses to detect you. And they are basically surrounded by MANY hunters. Frankly, I'd say it was a matter of saftey that caused its demise. But the general public sees all the examples I gave as not sporting. And today more than ever...their input matters. Which was and is my basic point...which is now leading to NO TRESPASSING signs on the increase and getting worse. You are in complete denial to think otherwise !
There are lots of ways a person could figure out to kill a deer. The methods are limited because other methods are either dangerous to others, put the odds too much in favor of the hunter, or would not be seen a positive light by the general public...who expect hunting methods to be reasonably "sporting" and humane. Printed out or not...that's exactly the way it is. Deer hunting is a SPORT !!!
Yes sir.........DEER NUDGIN. (still laughing) Well. As our old buddy Sarah might say: " HOW'S THAT WORKIN' OUT FOR YA???"
I'll give you this one...at least you're out there on your own two feet, HUNTING them. And I support THAT...'nudging' or not....100%
"Could apondsong BE Bill Randall? There's a thought."
Actually Roger, that last post makes me think that Bill "The Spokescriminal" Randall isn't quite as "out to lunch" as is ~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Apondsong. Scary isn't it?
You apparently know next to nothing about deer hunting. The three man deer "push" as described above is an excellent method for moving a deer to where one of the hunters can geta clean shot at it. Of course you have to know a little bit about how a deer eacts when disturbed to sucessfully employ it.
It works much better than the screaming idiot drive that you are describing, since the deer are not alarmed and present a standing or walkig shot.
MaineLion: Three men walking SLOWLY and QUIETLY through the Maine woods ... thinking they will force a deer onto one or the other, is so silly I can't really wrap my mind around it !! The first nano-second that deer gets wind of any ONE of those hunters...it is on high alert and you can kiss your chances of "creeping up on it"....(or getting it to stroll over to one of your buddies) a sorrowfull "GOOD BYE".
I don't know where the hell you boys are thinking this is going to work..but it isn't in the thickness of the Maine woods; I can gura-GUN-TEE you that. I suppose it would be fun to do, if you're the kind of hunter that can't wait to sit down to a public HUNTERS BREAKFAST with your buddies...and then go from there with um, out into the woods. Tummy full of good food and two best friends to hunt with. Yep...that's fun...it's a popular social event; but you can forget seeing a deer as you 'nudge" around the forest smelling of maple syrup, smoke, doughnuts and cooking grease.
Butch. QUICK !! Put up your cartoon ! That'll show me !! (lol)
PS. Try Still-Hunting instead; alone. It's a hunter's Tai Chi...and if you do it well...you might get a decent shot at one. Maybe.
"You apparently know next to nothing about deer hunting."
Mainelion, I think (s)he has proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
APS: [color=green]Drip drip drip, just like ol' Bill...[/color]
That was deep Butch. Just what I expected from you....minus the cartoon, tho.
Thank you for showing us who you really are, and how much you really (don't) know about deer hunting in the Maine outdoors.
WAIT !!! I see something new in your future ~~~~~~~~~> WISCONSIN !! (toooo funny)