Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

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DalekMagi
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

Additionally, I would recommend everyone keep a couple spare guns around as "expendables." If they mandate a registration, register the expendable junk, and keep those you intend to keep to yourself.

Virgil Kane
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

Maine has the reputation as being a gun friendly state. But the answers by our elected leaders to the MCAHV survey questions makes me wonder how long that will last. A truly frightening demonstration of complete indifference to rights of individuals by the powers that be. And not just by those in York and Cumberland counties. Elected officials from the County and downeast also showing a complete disregard for gun rights.

...---...
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

Lewiston Gun Show this weekend.

One of the best of the year,

JIMV
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

[quote="DalekMagi"]Additionally, I would recommend everyone keep a couple spare guns around as "expendables." If they mandate a registration, register the expendable junk, and keep those you intend to keep to yourself.[/quote]

That was the lesson of new orleans...get some throw away guns. All those 'from my cold dead hands' types docily turned over their guns at the first sight of a jack booted thug. Only the granny fought back, and was damaged for the fight.

Virgil Kane
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

[quote="Frostman"]As an avid hunter, I'm still uncertain as to exactly how the mere registration of my rifle infringes on my right to own one…[/quote]

Frostman,

What about your other rights? Suppose registration were mandatory. How would the government enforce compliance? Scheduled inspections? Random checks? How long before other rights give way to the govt's need to ensure compliance?

thejohnchapman
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

If law enforcement wants to clear validity of transactions re owners, that does not require ID of the gun.

Dear Chief Burton:

I am John Chapman of XXXXXXXXX, Portland, Maine. I am about to consummate a firearms / ammunition transaction with Joe Blow of XXXXXXXXXXX. Rockland, Maine.

Kindly let us know within the next 24 hours if there is some problem; otherwise (and in the absence of hearing from you), we will assume no problem.

Thanks

I reccommend the above be done as a hedge against CIVIL liability as part of every firearms private sale.

pmh
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

TJC,

The Continentals used hedges as excellent sniping locations and it took the lock-step redcoats a while to catch on. I would prefer their manner of hedging rather than unneccessarily involving some third party.

thejohnchapman
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

pmh:

If you end up selling to a "prohibited person" who injures or kill ssomebody with the firearm, a hedge may be all you can afford to live in for the rest of your life.

KennyRoberts
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liability gone wild

the arguments about civil liability are valid now, because of money hungry lawyers who
file suit for any reason. If I sell my old uninspectable car to some guy that tells
me he wants it for parts and later he is drunk, never did have a license, and runs over
someone, am I liable? Should I run him through the police and insurance records before I sell it?

Yes firearms are specifically weapons that have few purposes except to do what they do, but
extending responsibility to a former owner for crimes someone may commit in the future is
mostly an argument that sounds like restricting liberties "for the children's sake" arguments.

Registration leads to prohibition and confiscation, but mostly turns respectable citizens into instant criminals should they balk at one more incremental restriction. In stead of playing "what if" all the time
I would rather play "what should be". I have said for many years that the laws (in general) will make anyone a criminal eventually. You don't have to change your behavior one bit. Stand perfectly still and the laws will overtake and pass you until you are now in violation of something. Thank you to all the lawyers who have way too much time on their hands and are overly ambitious.

knucklehead
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

John, that is an incremental (and elitist) reply.

Now I have to travel to another country in addition to becoming a lawyer before I can play in your sandbox.

It is an excellent illustration of why I don't want the incremental thinkers in institutions making rules for me. You may be a great guy, as others on this forum have attested, but in this and other discussions, you appear unable or unwilling to step back and see the greater effect of your ideas. That is incremental thinking - not intentionally sinister, but woefully incomplete in analysis. Unintentional consequences result from this thinking.

I have promoted the Swiss model of government in the past, especially regarding firearms. However, I fear the resulting pandemonium when our government-educated, TV addicted population and Direct Democracy meet.

Gee, how did I know how Switzerland governs without going there?

Must be clarivoyant. You can call me Clara.

JIMV
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Re: liability gone wild

[quote="KennyRoberts"]the arguments about civil liability are valid now, because of money hungry lawyers who
file suit for any reason. If I sell my old uninspectable car to some guy that tells
me he wants it for parts and later he is drunk, never did have a license, and runs over
someone, am I liable? Should I run him through the police and insurance records before I sell it?[/quote]

Here is a first rate read on this issue:

[quote]Attack of the Lawyers

By Karen MacNutt,
Contributing Editor

In an August 16, 1991, Legal Times article, titled "Gun Control Through Tort Law," Dennis Henigan, director of the legal action project of the Brady Center, outlined their plan to achieve the Center's anti-gun goals using the courts.

"Holding a person or company liable for the intentionally violent act of someone else," he admitted, " is surely the exception, not the rule in American law." The article, and in a later one published in Trial magazine (February of 1995) titled "Victims and Violence," outlined the Center's plan to turn the common law rule on its end by supporting selective civil lawsuits. The goal was to have people who had done nothing wrong by current legal standards, pay for the intentionally violent acts of others. [/quote]

http://www.womenandguns.com/0307issue/macnutt0307.html

thejohnchapman
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

knuck:

You apparently haven't bothered to read my posts very well, or aren't thinking clearly about what I am saying. You admit that the Swiss do it right. Ok, you don't need to go there to learn that, since you concede it.

I 'win' on that pretty obvious point.

I am advocating that we should do it like the Swiss. I do [i]not[/i] claim that Strimling would sit still for putting in a truly universal program of training and armament of the true "militia" (all males of military age not in the slammer or disabled). I think he believes that any restriction is a good one. I am thinking more like Jimv, re "compromise", and have so posted here since 2000.

If we have mandatory training, say in high school, then anybody who has graduated from high school should be able to carry, hunt, etc, without further ado.

If training works for the Swiss, it could work for us. [color=red][size=18]If [/size][/color]we do it like the Swiss do. Not if we do it like Strimling would have us do it.

And periodic training in Switzerland is MANDATORY. Put on BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Read it slow, and do NOT assume that I'm arguing for Weinstein's bill, and maybe you'll get it, eventually.

pmh
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

TJC,

I don't sell my firearms to [i]anyone.[/i] They will someday go to designated heirs.

knucklehead
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

Actually, John, I read your posts very well, including the one on page three of this thread where you apparently advocate that we inform local law enforcement about every private firearms sale made so we don't get sued if the idiot we sell to misuses his or her firearm. You may be suggesting that as a voluntary thing, but I look farther down the road and see it becoming law.

Perhaps I should clarify: I am not nor will I ever advocate MANDATORY GOVERNMENT RULES about firearms sales or training. I have in the past advocated using the Swiss model for [u]voluntary[/u] training that would result in a permit to purchase and use the current US military small arms weaponry, ammo, and accessories (suppressors, night vision optics) at perhaps reasonable prices, in the interest of maintaining civilian readiness. That is something far different from mandatory rules for purchasing, using, or carrying a lever action rifle or single action revolver.

However, having grown up and realized the insatiable appetite of institutions to regulate and control every detail of society in the in the interest of [i]failure prevention[/i], I have now decided to take a more Libertarian, strict Constitutional stance: Leave me alone, we can't legislate our way into Utopia.

What you continue to advocate with posts like the one I referenced above is preventing failure by rulemaking. Bad stuff is going to happen, and no amount of training or regulation can prevent this. The greatest effect of all laws is to restrict free responsible citizens.

The machine gun ban came about due to the perceived threat/menace of organized crime. Now I cannot own such a weapon without paying a high tax on the transfer, but that is not the real deterrence. The unintended (or intended) consequence of the law is that while I can purchase a Bushmaster or similar semi auto Stoner-patterned .223 for right around a grand (assuming I would want one), the M16 variant costs 6-8 grand. Effectively, I cannot own a fully automatic weapon.

When you continue to insist we yield our ability to think to an institution, even to protect our backsides from lawsuits, you ARE advocating for the type of thing Weinstein put forth. I observe that you do continue to insist that lending authority to institutions will prevent safety or legal problems. I strongly disagree, and state that this type of thinking chips away at the foundational, root intention of our founding documents, even if you cannot understand that now.

This is a very good discussion, John, and I appreciate your tenacity. I would much rather fight about something like this than read about Anna Nicole's DNA!

Am I to understand you are now pulling away from support of LD 778?

thejohnchapman
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

Knuck:

I have suggested it as a purely voluntary thing, based on the "negligent entrustment" principles of tort law. I don't want my students getting successfully sued.

If I sell to somebody I don't know (though I haven't yet), I wouldn't mind a "heads up" if they are a felon. It is also more likely that any check wouldn't clear. No doubt you've seen the cartoon -- "on the internet nobody knows you are a dog." Moreover, My local gendarmerie knows I am a (mostly harmless) gun nut, because I shoot WITH the cops every chance I get.

That's another MAJOR difference between the Swiss and here. Every man is a member of the executive branch of government. There isn't the same "us vs. them" thing going as here. Can't be.

As for Jeff's existing LD, I disagree with it, though I do not think Jeff is a butthead. I'd like to use it as a lever to get guns back in schools, where they belong.

Mike Travers
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

I was selling a Smith and Wesson 9mm Model 669 several years ago and asked the police in advance of advertising it if I could check with them on anyone offering to buy. They said no. I pulled my ad and eventually sold it to my brother-in-law, who's job required him to be armed.

Stavros Mendros
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

[quote="laMaine"]I see nothing wrong with registration. I support it.[/quote]

Why not take DNA samples form everyone while we're at it, in case they commit a crime. If they aren't doing anything wrong what are they worried about?

Moving Forward
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Who Supports Firearm Licensing and Registration?

Like many others, I oppose this idea. It just sounds like another way for Govt to tax us.

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